Marty Birdsell Interview

--(Interview begins)--

GASSER: Marty, if you'd like to throw in a word or two about possibly, where you were born and when you were born.

BIRDSELL: I was born in the Cottage Hospital here in Santa Barbara on July 1936.

GASSER: I'm going to stop this right now and we're going to back it up and see if everything is recorded.

BIRDSELL: 36.

GASSER: In 1936. Okay. I looked down here and it says that your parents came to Santa Barbara in 1929 and that your father was from Nebraska and your mother 00:01:00from western Minnesota, from which you must only know of hearsay, being a Santa Barbara, a true Santa Barbara resident or a true Santa Barbarian. So, you grew up in Santa Barbara, all of your youth was spent here.

BIRDSELL: Yeah, just about all of it. It was for a short period of time I went to school in Solvang because my mother was Danish and some of her relatives came to Solvang at an early age, in the twenties, too. So she thought it would be nice to get a little taste of the Danish culture, the Danish pastry, you know.

GASSER: So, other than that, did you go to Santa Barbara High?

BIRDSELL: Yes, Santa Barbara High and the whole thing, the grammar schools, 00:02:00Jefferson and Roosevelt and La Cumbre Junior High and Santa Barbara High.

GASSER: So, what was your first experience with meeting Bobby Hyde or the Mountain Drive community?

BIRDSELL: I remember one time when I, sort of had, speaking terms with him. For a long time, I hadn't really, I knew who he was and so forth, but...

GASSER: How did you know that?

BIRDSELL: Well, because other people had pointed him out to me, or other people who are mutual friends, and that sort of thing. But in the early 60s, one time, I got sort of close to him. There was a... Bobby Fischer came to Santa Barbara 00:03:00to play chess and about 52 people showed up at the Recreation Center. This was about maybe 62, 63, around that time. Bobby Fischer, at the time, was only about 20, around 20 years old. Bobby Hyde was one of people who played chess with Bobby Fischer, amongst the other 50 people, or 51 people. Anyway, I think I got to know him that night because I was there, too. It was interesting.

GASSER: So, you're a chess player.

BIRDSELL: A little bit, but not a serious one. Not a very serious one. Needless to say, Bobby Fischer put enough people away in that short a period, rather a 00:04:00short period of time. But I do recall Bobby Hyde lasting for quite, he was maybe one of the last ones to get beaten.

GASSER: And about how long did that game take? You said, for quite a long time. Is that a . . .

BIRDSELL: Maybe about an hour, an hour and a half... for the whole thing.

GASSER: Decent time.

BIRDSELL: Yes.

GASSER: So, that was the first that you'd talked to him, that evening.

BIRDSELL: Well, I complimented him on his staying power, but, yeah, I think that was one of the first times I'd talked to him.

GASSER: Then, how did you get closer to Mountain Drive? How did you finally acquire your property?

BIRDSELL: Well, in, just after the fire, in 1964, late 1964,[1] Ted Adams and I rented a house up there. It was 00:05:00on Banana Road and it was called the Adobe and...

GASSER: Whose house was that?

BIRDSELL: The house, at the time, belonged to a fellow named Dethlefsen and he had moved to Massachusetts. That house had been standing vacant for about 3 weeks or so, for lack of a tenant. There was not quite so great a demand for housing in those days and you could rent houses pretty easily and really cheaply then. So, Ted Adams and I rented this house. I lived there for the next two or three years. That's sort of how I got acquainted with some of the other people who lived in the area as well as Bobby Hyde and the rest of the neighbors. After 00:06:00about 2 or 3 years living in that area, I moved next door because the Adobe had gotten sold and I moved next door to the McGeorge house and lived there for, I don't know, about half, oh, for about another year or so, at the time. Some of the people who shared the house with me were Jerry Haggerty, Michael Douglas, Claire Marx, Pauline McGeorge and there were a lot of people coming and going.

GASSER: It sounds like a very large house.

BIRDSELL: It was a large house. It was actually two houses. There was kind of a three-story kitchen type thing with a living space both below and above. I lived under the kitchen. The main house was occupied by, oh, I don't know, 4, 5, 6 people.

GASSER: What was it like to live with Michael Douglas?

BIRDSELL: Oh, he was a very nice guy. He's a very kind and unpretentious person and he's always been a nice person to be around. He was a student at the time at the Drama Department at UCSB and I found he was a very nice fellow to be around.

GASSER: Was he at all very famous at that point in time?

BIRDSELL: Uh...

GASSER: Or just beginning?

BIRDSELL: He hadn't even begun yet. He had acted in a few things, school plays and stuff. I think he transferred from Northwestern to UCSB, but he hadn't done, at that time, any movies or anything. He was just, just like any other student at UCSB in 1967.

GASSER: You acquired your land directly from Bobby Hyde?

BIRDSELL: Yeah, I bought it straight across from him. It was a deal where both 00:09:00myself and a friend of mine named Bill Fortner decided to buy two parcels that he had for sale and hopefully, we would get a discount, since we bought two instead of one. Then, Bobby gave us a nice healthy generous discount.

GASSER: So, Bill Fortner is related to Elizabeth Fortner?[2]

BIRDSELL: He was married to her, at the time.

GASSER: How did you decide upon the property up there at the very crest of the hill? Why were those parcels left?

BIRDSELL: They had belonged to other people before and there was actually, there was a lot of land that Bobby had at that time that was still for sale and it was 00:10:00just sitting on the market. There was nobody to buy, that had the 50 to 100 to 500 dollars that it took to buy the piece of land. One of the things, one of the reasons why Bill Fortner and I got a discount, he was asking $10,000 and we got them for $7,000, pieces that we got up $500 apiece for a down payment, which was a, we saw the thought as an astronomical sum in those days. It took us a little time to scrape the money up, but Bobby was so impressed with that $1,000 that he knocked off $3,000 for each lot.

GASSER: So, what was your first impression of Bobby Hyde whenever you got to know him a little bit better? How did you approach him with this... what was 00:11:00your impression of Bobby Hyde?

BIRDSELL: He was a really kind of a spacey utopian kind of guy. He had a lot of great ideas and he managed to use his imagination and... do things with it and get away with it somehow, he'd manage... he'd do that. I bought another parcel of land from him two years later and it was a really, an unbelievably difficult piece of land and I said, "How would one ever get a piece of... house on a piece of land like that?" And he said, "All you need is a little imagination." And he 00:12:00had more than his share and... which made him a very interesting person.

GASSER: Did you often talk to him about his utopian ideas?

BIRDSELL: No. He never, we never got in that sort of a discussion. I, most of the conversations that I had with him were sort of more on a, on sort of a day-to-day business type level. Utopia was kind of, he had a thing in Canada. He was trying to get people interested in going to them. Some people did in fact go 00:13:00up there which was another kind of, he bought some land up there and, but I didn't choose to go up there because I kind of had enough at the time to satisfy. I had my hands full already.

GASSER: What did you have your hands full with?

BIRDSELL: Just building a little house up there. In retrospect, it really seems like really a small project, but when you're first starting out it seemed, at the time, really a big deal. It was only a two room house. But it was like a great little project. Then it turned out to be, I hadn't even thought about it in those terms. But it turned out to be one of the smartest things I ever did, I 00:14:00mean, that one can ever do, I suppose.

GASSER: Had you never built anything before?

BIRDSELL: No. I was living at the McGeorge house. I was paying $25 a month for rent for this room under the kitchen and I was perfectly happy to stay there. There was a swimming pool there and there was just, there was a lot of action there, a lot of fun parties, carrying on and everything. But then the house got sold and we were all told to take a hike. So, I bought the land at the time, by that time. So, I moved up in this canyon where the land was and lived in a trailer up there and built the house. It kind of instigated the whole thing. If 00:15:00I could still be living there paying $25 a month rent, I'd probably still be there.

GASSER: Yes. In Santa Barbara, you'd have three or four other people wanting that place to kill? So, did anyone come and help you make your plans for your house and did...

BIRDSELL: Frank Robinson[3][4] did the plans. He was kind of, I think he was pretty happy over the whole thing because it was really a simple, small unpretentious house. He felt good about it and I felt really good about it. So, the house, two years later, there it was. I spent about $4,000 on getting it built and I moved in. I never had to hunt 00:16:00around for places to live. I was set. It's really been great.

GASSER: So, did people come and help you? Did you do it all yourself?

BIRDSELL: No, Robert Venable was, he was the, he deserves the most credit, I think, on getting it done. He did all the carpentry and framing and things. I helped him and did what I could. He spent the most time on it, of the people that helped on it. There wasn't a lot of plumbing to do, but Bill Ridenour and Tom Ridenour helped with that. The bulldozing was Gene McGeorge.[5] The plumbing, let's see, the electrical was 00:17:00Doug Grant.

GASSER: Did you pay them or was this just a friendship?

BIRDSELL: I paid them, you know, one way or another. I either did something for them or I paid them money. If I had something that they could use more than I could, I'd give it to them. It was a barter kind of system although it wasn't all spelled out. It just sort of worked out that way.

GASSER: Were you accepted on the Drive right away as someone within the community or did it take a period of time to...

BIRDSELL: It took a little time. There was a certain amount of concern within 00:18:00the community for a kind of self-protective thing about it because they didn't want a lot of notoriety there. They didn't want a lot of party crashers and people like that. So, you kind of had to get to know the people around there because things were happening there that a lot of people would just love to experience.

GASSER: For example...

BIRDSELL: Well, hot baths. That was very, very notorious in those days, doing things like that. The nudity. The swimming pool that I mentioned a few minutes ago, there was never a bathing suit to be seen. And it was all very casual. It 00:19:00was just the way things were. So, naturally, the people, you had to get to know them a little bit because it isn't just something you want to yell, "Well, come on in..." and all that kind of thing.

GASSER: Who do you see as sort of the main of those older people who had been there through the fifties? Who were those main people that you sort of had to get to know to become a part of Mountain Drive?

BIRDSELL: Well, some kind of relished their position in this and it was kind of a, they contributed and they, their needs were fulfilled by the kind of social power that they wielded, you know, which is okay. They would organize plays and 00:20:00parties and bacchanals and Wine Stomps[6] and festivals and Pot Wars[7] and things like that. Then, in return, you know, like you sort of treated them with a certain deference. They sort of liked that. Bill Neely[8] seems to comes to mind and there were a few others,

GASSER: For example, who were some of those others?

BIRDSELL: Well, I shouldn't say because they would probably, they may not agree with my assessment of the situation. I harbor no grudges toward any of these 00:21:00people. Some of the social things were on the snobbish side and so, I don't think I will point the finger. We're all a little of guilty of things like that on occasion.

GASSER: Indeed. One thing that always impressed me about Mountain Drive was the getting together to do projects; the hot baths, as you mentioned, but there were also, I believe, there was a lot of environmental, both cleaning up of the land, cementing and natural hot springs. Could you describe or talk a little bit about those?

BIRDSELL: It was very earthy, sort of an outlook before it was, it got a name. 00:22:00An environmentalist, the term hadn't been invented yet. Most people didn't know what ecology meant. Then, there was a certain respect for naturally grown food and of hand cultivated gardens and adobe houses, you know, from the earth and all the things that you can get, maybe not more efficiently, but a lot cheaper if you want to spend the time, making adobe bricks. I mean, eventually, you'll 00:23:00have enough bricks to build a house and that was the thinking of it without going down and buying a lot of lumber and that sort of thing.

GASSER: Is your house adobe?

BIRDSELL: No. Part of it is Mexican brick and the rest of it is wood frame.

GASSER: What is Mexican brick?

BIRDSELL: Brick that me and a group of people would go down and buy loads of in Mexico; Tecate in particular. Roof tile, floor tile, the decorative tile further south, in Baja.

GASSER: That the environmental concerns I didn't mean to break that train of thought.

BIRDSELL: That's okay. I don't mind you doing that.

GASSER: Okay. How were some of these projects organized? I at believe over at Little Caliente or there's one of the, I think, hot springs over on...

BIRDSELL: Well, there was Little Caliente, there was Mono, there was Las Cruces, and there was Hot Springs in Montecito.

GASSER: And did you have very much to do with caring for those hot springs?

BIRDSELL: No, most of the time, we just enjoyed them. Some people would spend some time trying to improve them and things but we usually would just go over there and have a good time. There were a few things that had to be done to take 00:25:00care of it, as far as making, not leaving a bunch of trash and junk and tracks and stuff like that. We'd always try to keep it just the way they were. The fire destroyed the hot springs in Montecito. Finally, there was only one tub left that was intact. People would go up and use that tub until the property owner, I suppose, finally destroyed that last tub. That was all for the hot baths there. But, somebody later on, downstream a little ways, sort of fashioned another one out of the earth that you could get into.

GASSER: Were there many excursions to the back country?

BIRDSELL: Whenever you felt like it. Sometimes in the middle of the night, let's go back there. It didn't matter that there were hot baths and stuff here to private ones to go to, just the fact that they were there and if it hadn't rained or anything like that, usually in the wintertime were the most fun, because it was cold and the hot baths were hot. And there was less likely to be tourists there. So, if you timed it right, between rainstorms, and you had the whole place to yourself.

GASSER: Do people still do that as spontaneously?

BIRDSELL: On Mountain Drive, I don't know. I haven't been there, well, for the 00:27:00last couple of years, I've been living in Santa Ynez, so I'm not sure what they, some people do.

GASSER: Why have you chosen to live in Santa Ynez and away from Mountain Drive?

BIRDSELL: Well, I really didn't move away. I built a little studio on Mountain Drive. So I still, I go there and stay one or two nights a week. The house in Santa Ynez was just kind of a challenge to get built and what I did on Mountain Drive, I thought I would repeat in Santa Ynez and it turned out to be great. Really a good idea to go over there and live there for a little while. Now I kind of want to move back here again.

GASSER: You have a wanderlust.

BIRDSELL: Yeah, boy, you know, you got that right.

GASSER: How did you come to be a merchant seaman?

BIRDSELL: Well, I was driving truck for Standard Oil. I was driving these tanker trucks, you know, delivering gas or diesel to gas stations all the way from Morro Bay to Santa Susanna out of the Carpinteria terminal. I had an accident with the truck I was driving. I ran into another truck which they sort of frowned upon. So they decided I'd be better off not driving trucks. So, I transferred into the Marine Department for Chevron 00:29:00Shipping.[9] It was a good move, surprisingly. I'd probably still be driving a truck if I hadn't had the accident. So, I'm glad that accident happened, now. I thought my life had come to an end when it happened.

GASSER: What was the most attractive thing to you about Mountain Drive?

BIRDSELL: It was really exciting and different and stimulating in more than just the excitement of naked bodies and that, but it was a dynamic and interesting 00:30:00place, of ideas going on. The people that were there were diverse and they, most of them all had something to say that was, to a lot of people, new and interesting, maybe even revolutionary, maybe even reactionary. All of that was there, it seemed like. This seemed to go on throughout these gatherings. There was, a week couldn't go by that there weren't at least 3 or 4 gatherings 00:31:00somehow, somewhere rather, there may be an art class at somebody's house, or happy hour on Friday night, or a Sunset Club[10] at Jack's house[11] or a weekend party or musical activities, poetry. There was, there always seemed like something was going on.

GASSER: This was all a willing kind of participation?

BIRDSELL: Oh, yeah. It was looked forward to. Sometimes with a great deal of preparation and almost a sort of ritual attached to some things. Certain 00:32:00traditions were clung to. It was interesting.

GASSER: What was your favorite tradition? What was your favorite party?

BIRDSELL: I don't think I can classify any of them as favorites. None really comes bouncing out, except maybe the times, the Wine Stomps maybe, something like that. That was a whole weekend. That was quite a complex event.

GASSER: Can you describe that weekend as it happened?

BIRDSELL: On Friday night, people would start to track up north to San Luis Obispo County to a fellow's ranch. His name was Mel Casteel.[12] They would gather at that ranch around sundown and leave early in the afternoon. Some people would leave sooner. By sundown there would be enough people there to have a party. They'd get their campsites all set up, in the vineyard. Then we'd gather there at Mel Casteel's front yard and there'd be a huge bonfire and there'd be bowls of chili and, you 00:34:00know, passed around and salads and wine from the previous harvest and wine from Mel Casteel's private stock and wine that people brought up with them. It would be just a huge party that night. Then everybody would camp there and wake up the next morning and have breakfast and begin the pick. The pick would last 'til noon and there would be another party because chances are that would be as much grapes as we needed to pick. There were enough people there and all of them picking grapes at the same time. There were many, enough tons of grapes. It was 00:35:00just fun. There'd and then, throughout the afternoon, people be a lunch there would, sort of, when they got ready, they would go on back down to Santa Barbara to, in some cases, there's back down to Bill Neely's place, house and there would be a party there Saturday night, after the pick. Then, Sunday morning would be, well, Sunday day, there'd be a breakfast. But that was usually each individual, you know, that would sort of be scattered about. But by lunchtime again, there would be another, a lunch and a stomp would be in the afternoon. Then, everybody who'd been on the pick was invited to the stomp. So, then that 00:36:00lasted throughout the afternoon 'til Sunday night. Those who were still standing probably could have a party that night, too.

GASSER: Very many people make it through the Sunday night party

BIRDSELL: Yeah, they did. Most of them did. They wouldn't have missed it for the world.

GASSER: So, the other traditions, included costumes. Do you remember any of the costumes or your own costumes? Did you have a standard costume?

BIRDSELL: Yeah, I had mostly just a standard one, just something to throw on that would fit almost any occasion except for, it didn't work very well for 00:37:00something like a toga party or anything like that. Because, what I had, was a Belgium military officer's tunic, I think it was, or something. But, it managed to work for most occasions, anyway. There were times certain theme type parties that you kind of had to use some imagination; 1920s style. I remember a 1940s style party one time. Some parties I think there was would be like just a fancy hat. Some parties would be...

GASSER: ...and nothing else.

BIRDSELL: And, yeah, nothing else. Some people would actually do it. Some people, sometimes the parties would follow certain historical or literary themes like Cinco de Mayo or French Revolution, Independence, 14th of July, Bastille Day, right. Literary ones would be like Bobby Burns' birthday.[13] Can't think of any other literary figures. Whenever somebody wanted to throw a party, they could pick whatever reason they want to throw it, whatever theme they wanted. So there were all kinds of things. 00:39:00There was one time when people were really into introspection and past lives and things like that. There was a party where instead of a "come as you are party," it was a "come as you were party."

GASSER: What did some people come as?

BIRDSELL: Oh, you name it.

GASSER: What were you in your past lives?

BIRDSELL: Oh, I forgot, I forgot. I don't dwell too much on that sort of thing because I don't, there's no way...

GASSER: Do you remember who gave the party?

BIRDSELL: Yeah, I do, but that doesn't really add, that wouldn't really add anything to it. I think it was at Gill Johnston's place. I think maybe it was 00:40:00Audrey Johnston[14] was, had that.

GASSER: Audrey was part of the, one of the leaders of the mystical era of Mountain Drive or...

BIRDSELL: No, she was a contributor, but go ahead.

GASSER: She was a contributor?

BIRDSELL: To that particular phase of the way it was. What were you going to say?

GASSER: Well, I know that she is known as the "Little Shepherdess" of LSD, I believe, was one of her titles.

BIRDSELL: Well, she really sort of, well, I don't know whether I should say she, we all did, we were all sort of in fault in that and very much felt that it was 00:41:00a valid experience to have. So, it wasn't just Audrey. But she, she had, she enjoyed it. We liked it. We all liked it. We all enjoyed experimenting with it at the time. I don't know that anybody takes it anymore up there. I'm not sure why, but they don't. For a while, maybe for 2 or 3 years, from '65 to about '67, was when I could because the laws weren't changed, both the federal and state laws had not been passed prohibiting its use, so there was a little period there 00:42:00that, from late '65 to early '67 or mid '67 that it was not illegal, but the legality didn't so much had anything to do with it. It just seemed that for a while, nobody had really heard of it. It hadn't become so emotionally charged as, you know, it was just something that we thought would be nice to take. A lot of us felt it was a lot nicer taking that than chewing peyote or morning glory 00:43:00seeds or something that people had been taking before the LSD came along.

GASSER: Do you think that was very divisive for Mountain Drive?

BIRDSELL: No, I think it kind of brought everybody together. I think that it gave people something to talk about. It sort of made a pretty exciting place, I thought. Even more so, more than it was. It wasn't just drink a lot of wine and get all gassed up.

GASSER: Speaking of lunch, let me get more coffee. I see that you have an empty cup. Hang on. I'll stop this for a bit. This is side 2 of the interview with 00:44:00Marty Birdsell[15] on the first of February in 1987. After a short pause, you're well-known on Mountain Drive also for your organizing abilities. You organized, I think, you've been involved with the Fire Department and seeing the need for the Fire Department and getting organized.

BIRDSELL: Yeah, for a while, there was a certain period of time spent like a community organization. It's still, it's still functioning. Although I'm not as much involved in it as I used to be. There used to be a newspaper published up there on Mountain Drive for years and years called "The 00:45:00Grapevine."[16] Before that, it was called "The Mountain Drive News." I was involved, at one time, in getting that out. And...

GASSER: ...as editor.

BIRDSELL: For a while, yeah, for a while. A number of people have edited that thing. Every bit should have been passed from, to various people's hands along the way. It's been started back in the 50s. Each individual who's done something with it has done it...

GASSER: ...his way?

BIRDSELL: His or her way. Yeah.

GASSER: So, what was your way? How did you go about organizing "The Grapevine?"

BIRDSELL: It was more on a political, like a vote block at the time, you know, at the time that I got involved with it. It still had the same kind of, you know, a lot of the same articles by various people in a kind of chatty, kind of anecdotal way. But, at the time that I was involved, which was in the late 60's and early 70s, everybody was sort of into something on a political level. The 00:47:00Mountain Drive "Grapevine" and the Mountain Drive Association was just a kind of an outlet for people to express their feelings.

GASSER: What were some of those political feelings?

BIRDSELL: Well, stopping the war which was going on in Vietnam. Mainly, I think, that was, I think that was the thing that overrode just about everything else at that time. There was some environmental considerations that were important to us. The blowout which occurred in the Santa Barbara Channel in 1969[17] was the beginning of the environmental movement within the United States which was, that's usually what, when people have to pick a date, that's one that happened. When it did, we were involved at the 00:48:00time. We got behind the issue and promoted as much environmental consideration as we could. So those are two things. I got involved in the drug abuse thing. There had been some problems with drugs by that time in the early 70s and about '72 up there on the Drive. So, I got into that. I got involved on a county level trying to establish areas of organizations which could help serve the problem 00:49:00of, if people were having a problem, there's the "Hotline" for example, in Isla Vista was just getting started then, as was the Klein Bottle, and the Phoenix House, and Social Advocates for Youth and a lot of the organizations, some of which are still functioning, were started then. I, at the time, got involved, I got appointed to a committee, a countywide committee called the "Technical Advisory Committee on Drug Abuse." We were involved mainly in funding an organization. We would pass out money that was granted to us, to these 00:50:00organizations and to help keep them going. We got money from National Institute of Drug Abuse and several sources, Senate Bill 714, LEAA money, I could go on. Anyway, we would fund these organizations and I was involved in that for about 7, 6 or 7 years. I finally got burned out on it and decided that there must be somebody besides me that can worry about these things, too.

GASSER: So, do you think your involvement with this organization was a direct result of your experiences on Mountain Drive, or what inspired you?

BIRDSELL: Partly, yeah. I sort of felt that a lot of the people on Mountain 00:51:00Drive had a leg up on some of these problems, 'cause we had more experience with them. So that's why, I thought we had something to contribute, to those who needed it, or maybe even society in general, I don't know.

GASSER: Were other people involved on Mountain Drive in this particular project?

BIRDSELL: Not a whole lot of people, except for the people who had some tragedy occur that forced their involvement in it, like their kids having problems or 00:52:00something like that.

GASSER: For example, who were some of the people who had problems?

BIRDSELL: Well, there was one kid in Montecito that committed suicide because he had a drug problem. Then there was a kid on Mountain Drive who committed suicide and I felt that something should be done to try to prevent this if you could. I don't necessarily feel that suicide is inherently a bad thing, but what leads up to it sometimes is not too much fun. I think that, at least with this one kid, a 00:53:00young guy, it could have been avoided.

GASSER: You sound like you were close to him.

BIRDSELL: Well, yeah. I was a little; I really felt that, I was sort of close to the family. I knew the family. I knew the father and knew the mother and the brother and the sister and all that. I kind of felt that somehow or other, it was not necessary for him to commit suicide. But, there's a certain number of people that have problems and no matter what you do, there are always going to be a certain number of people that have problems whether they take drugs or not. Some people are just not going to make it.

GASSER: Do you think you helped people on Mountain Drive, per se, through your activities?

BIRDSELL: Well, that was the idea, maybe. But, I really don't know whether I really helped people. Maybe I have. Nobody's ever told me that I have. Maybe I did. I don't know.

GASSER: Sunset Club. What is your first remembrance of the Sunset Club? Was it already in existence by the time you moved to Mountain Drive?

BIRDSELL: That's mainly Jack, Jack Boegle's. That's his, his little thing. Almost exclusively, that's him. That's Jack's gathering time. That was when he 00:55:00was at home for, to people and for people. You just come up and sit and you watch the sun set. You don't have to watch the sun set. You can come up with your eyes closed and just talk for a while, engage in a little conversation and sometimes lasts between 30 minutes and 2 hours. Then you get up and go home. That was kind of like the end of the week, the week end's activities in a way. People would wind up at Jack's house for a round of drinks.

GASSER: This was always a Sunday night, I hear it, I understand it was mostly for men? Or only for men?

BIRDSELL: Well, it was always, no, Jack will never live that one down, even in our post-feminist era, our new post-feminist era, whatever that means. But at one time, I think it was supposed to just be for men, but then, that was so long ago, that nobody could really set a date on that and women have been perfectly welcome as long as I've been going to Sunset Club. I've even brought a few just for the experience and Jack doesn't seem to mind.

GASSER: How would you characterize Jack Boegle?

BIRDSELL: Well, he's a very interesting guy. He's got, he's in great shape physically for somebody who's almost 80 years old. He's an ex-champion badminton 00:57:00player and fair to middlin' tennis player even to this day and built a nice house up on Mountain Drive with a beautiful place to watch sunsets from and he seems to be doing just fine.

GASSER: Well, I'm very excited to be going to Sunset Club this evening. What can I expect? How many people come?

BIRDSELL: Oh, anywhere from 2 or 3 to 6 or 8 or something. Whoever just feels like going up is welcome to stop in and have a glass of wine. He serves the 00:58:00cheapest wine he can find, you know, in these 5 liter box wine that you get at Thrifty's for $3.55, I think is what they charge, so you can serve a lot of people with a box of this Thrifty wine.

GASSER: I'm looking forward to this. You can, as far as, there was also a place called the "Taverna" as I understand up on Mountain Drive. Could you describe that?

BIRDSELL: I don't think, I think it was called the "Cantina."

GASSER: The Cantina.

BIRDSELL: Yeah, that was a little, actually a little bar that Gene McGeorge and Kajsa[18] built below the Bobby Hyde, the old Bobby Hyde house. They built this thing in about six days. It was a place where he and 00:59:00Kajsa and the newborn baby, Mills, to live and at the same time, he built a bar there and stocked it with wine and whiskey and ouzo and beer and they were open every night. You could go there and buy a drink and listen to Kajsa play the guitar. There was no electricity there or anything like that. There was an ice chest and a kerosene lamp and they were all set. There were barstools. If you timed it right, you could probably get there when they were cooking something, have something to eat as well.

GASSER: Was it the means for them to make a living?

BIRDSELL: It was thought of as a nice little source of extra income. Gene was, had other ways to make, he did other things, too, and so did Kajsa.

GASSER: What did they do?

BIRDSELL: Well she played music for money and he would accompany her on the violin. Then, he himself was a builder, a contractor. So, he would occasionally build things. I think he was, yeah, he was in partnerships with Michael Peake at one time, building houses.

GASSER: What houses did they build?

BIRDSELL: Well, he built his own on Banana Road. I think he built several others on Banana Road, too. I don't know exactly which ones because they were before my 01:01:00time. He was splitting up with his wife, Pauline,[19] shortly after we moved up to Banana Road. We lived right next door to them. After they split up, well, he took off. I didn't see him quite as much after that.