Sandy Hill Interview

--(Interview begins)--

BENET: Today is Saturday, January 10, 1987. My name is Linda Benet, and I will be interviewing Sandy Hill for the Santa Barbara Museum of Arts Oral History Program. This interview will be part of the Santa Barbara Mountain Drive Project. Good afternoon, Sandy. I would like to first ask you when it was you were born.

HILL: I was born in Michigan--I'm a foreigner (laughter)--in Traverse City, Michigan.

BENET: Is that upstate Michigan, or...

HILL: It's the northern part of lower Michigan, right where the gap between the little finger and third finger would come, right at the bottom of the bay there.

BENET: What year were you born?

HILL: 1926.

BENET: And how long did you live there?

HILL: I lived there until I was about nine, and my parents were separated, and then I spent part of my time in other parts of Michigan and eventually 00:01:00California visiting my mother.

BENET: So your parents were separated?

HILL: I lived there mainly with my father, and it wasn't until World War II and my father was drafted--I had been living with my grandparents. At that time I was sent to live with my mother in California--in Santa Barbara. So I was sixteen when I came to Santa Barbara.

BENET: Where was she living in Santa Barbara?

HILL: On Overlook Lane at the top of Alameda Padre Serra. My stepfather was a musician here, Philip Abbas. He was a cellist, and he also did conducting and also played with the chamber music groups here in Santa Barbara.

BENET: Was he a musician all his life?

HILL: Yes. He was born in Holland, and he was sort of a child prodigy. He 00:02:00traveled all over the world playing as a cellist and eventually conducted in the United States. I think the WPA had a group that helped patronize musicians, and he conducted in Detroit, and Grand Rapids and he conducted the Detroit Symphony.

BENET: Before he met your mother?

HILL: Yes. Well actually he was playing as a cello soloist then in Traverse City, Michigan. I believe she used to babysit his children. And then his wife--actually I guess before that--his wife died before that. She went down on 00:03:00the Lusitania with one of his children. And she babysat the remaining children. So that's how they met.

BENET: How interesting. And then they both came to Santa Barbara?

HILL: Eventually. Santa Barbara at that time--this was in the forties--was supposed to be a center of culture, and they soon found out there was great talk of culture, but not a great deal of money. But at that time the war was on, and I believe it was Lockheed had an assembly plant where the Armory is now, and they both worked there for a while during the war.

BENET: Did your mother have a cultural background herself?

HILL: No, not at all. She always had a desire for culture and travel and so on. 00:04:00I think she used to pore over the old National Geographics and dream about--she entered every contest in sight. In fact, when we were kids one of our favorite stories before we went to bed was about the big, white ocean liner. She would say that we would win a contest, and she would go through all the details of going down to the local luggage store and what we would buy, in detail, and so on. That stuck in my head. I'm sure it set off my love of travel. One of the first things I did after my first job here in Santa Barbara after I'd saved my money for a year. I bought a ticket to Hawaii, and did indeed sail off on the big white ocean liner. (laughter)

BENET: How old were you then?

HILL: I was about nineteen.

BENET: So from 16 to 19 did you live at home with your mother and your new stepfather?

HILL: Yes, and then I went to high school here at the second half of my junior year and my senior year. I graduated here from Santa Barbara High School.

BENET: After you went to Hawaii did you return to Santa Barbara?

HILL: Oh yes. I did cancel my boat ticket home and stayed longer because I met quite few friends, and I even had the offer of a job. And I was strongly tempted to stay, but I didn't. I came back here because I felt a loyalty to the dentist I worked for, Dr. Richard Lyon, who had been very nice to me and my family. And I came back out of loyalty to him. Then I did, eventually, meet my husband, Stan.

BENET: When did you do that?

HILL: Actually, he was a blind date. I went to high school with his sister. He was overseas during World War II in the Air Corps at that time, now Air Force, and she tried to get me to write to him, and I didn't. So there was a beach party after graduation at their parents' beach house on the Rincon, and she arranged it so that he picked me up. And we hit it off immediately. I think what attracted him was the fact that I was the only girl he ever met that built model airplanes, and to Stan that was really quite appealing. So we went around 00:07:00together for about a year and were married.

BENET: You were still living at home?

HILL: I was living at home. Well actually, before that, when I graduated from high school my mother and stepfather went to Texas, to a little place called Farr, which is near Brownsville. Some musician friends of his had bought citrus land down there, and there was a great interest in the arts in Brownsville. They were all making a great deal of money on citrus and also playing music, and we went down there with the idea of buying a citrus ranch and settling in the sort of artist colony. But the war ended with Japan while we were down there, and the government immediately took the subsidies off citrus, and we hadn't signed the 00:08:00papers yet on the land we were about to purchase, and our friends were having a hard go of it because there was a drought and they were stuck with their investments. So we headed back for Santa Barbara, and when we got as far as Colorado Springs my stepfather had a heart attack and died. Neither my mother nor I drove so another musician friend of the family, a nice old gentleman named Fred Lewis, drove out from Los Angeles and drove us back. We stayed in Los Angeles just long enough for my mother to get a driver's license. She'd never learned to drive, and she wouldn't let me. So then we came to Santa Barbara, and that's when I went to work for a year and met my husband.

BENET: After you worked, did you go to college?

HILL: No. I did well in high school, and actually I got the science award--actually, I earned the science award--and I was interviewed by my physics teacher who wanted to know my plans for college, and my mother was not at all in favor of a girl, at that time, going to college by herself, and wouldn't allow me to accept a scholarship.

BENET: Was that hard on you?

HILL: At the time it was a disappointment, but in one way I didn't really realize there were ways that I could have gone. I simply accepted it, and 00:10:00thanked him for telling me that I had won the award, and I did agree with him that this other boy who was second was planning to go to college and therefore should have it. So he went. But years later when I was at home with the little babies, and suddenly there was no stimulation, (laughter) that I was cutting up food in little bits and so on, I did have occasion to be a little bit bitter about things. But I got over it.

BENET: I know you continued with a strong interest in science.

HILL: Well, I share it with my husband. I've been able to partner with him in a lot of things. Before the children came and when they were small he did a lot of work with model aircraft, and I did design one--with his help, but with some 00:11:00research on Reynolds numbers which are characteristic of small airfoils. And the plane won the finals here in the United States, and he took it to England to fly in the FAI championships, and it came in about third in the world and a model airplane company did make a model of it.

BENET: Do you have a model of it?

HILL: Yes, in the attic somewhere, and pictures in the magazines. So it was just sort of a small triumph. I'm not interested in that now particularly, but it was fun to do at the time. Since then I've gone on to other things. But at least it proved, you know, if I'd wanted to I could do it.

BENET: Well, I know that you have a strong interest in natural science.

HILL: Yes. In fact I always did have a bent in that direction. When I lived in 00:12:00Michigan we lived at a lake about ten miles out of town, and we were one of the few people who were there all year round.

BENET: Because it froze over?

HILL: Yes, it froze, and it was mostly a summer resort. I spent a lot of time alone, and I never have been lonely by myself. There are always things to do. I spent a long time collecting specimens for the high school up there in Michigan at the lake--fish, frogs, snakes and whatnot. So I've always had a strong interest there.

BENET: I know you've hiked the back country in Santa Barbara County. Could you describe your favorite place if you have any?

HILL: Well, (laughter) I like the Hurricane Deck area, which is accessible from 00:13:00Nira. And I like particularly the Sierras because there's a lot more water and the mountains are little higher and a little more challenge. And I did eventually, through my interest in plants, particularly alpine plants, go on a University of California expedition to Switzerland, which was my all-time favorite thing because the mountains are bigger (laughter) and there's more. I realized that I think my tastes are probably quite European, because I really felt at home there, and I saw people doing things in a way that I prefer them done in the care of the environment.

BENET: Did you incorporate any of those things you saw into your home life?

HILL: Well, one of the first things I did in coming home from Switzerland was 00:14:00buy myself some lace curtains. (laughter) But the idea of having flower boxes and flowers and good home grown lettuce, and a care of the details as they do. And they do take more care with their produce and things than we do. There's no wires wrapped around the lettuce that bruise it and strangle it. And I've always grown a lot of my own lettuce and herbs and things for the table. But it was nice to go to a place where everyone else had this interest and care and were not willing to take beat-up food.

BENET: When did you first get interested in the Mountain Drive area?

HILL: When the children were quite small...

BENET: Which children are you talking about?

HILL: The first two, Leslie and Randy. I was trying to think. When Leslie started kindergarten I began to realize that I was going to have some free time. At that time the Adult Education Program here in Santa Barbara was getting, going strong, and I decided I had always wanted to learn to draw. My husband agreed to babysit one night so I could go to a class. And at the class--it was a drawing class--I forgot who taught it, but it was in the old Alhecama Theater group. I met a couple named Friedman, Bonny and Gerald Friedman, and they 00:16:00invited us--or me to bring my husband--to their home on Mountain Drive. And we came up on a Sunday, and several of the locals were there, Frank Robinson and the Neelys. And at that time they were drinking Red Mountain wine, which was a cheap jug wine, but we enjoyed meeting people who were building their own homes and seemed much more interesting than some of the people that we had met--been meeting at cocktail parties down in Santa Barbara. And somehow, after that, our 00:17:00social life was oriented up here.

BENET: Do you remember their address at the time, the Friedmans?

HILL: It was 200-something Mountain Drive. It's on the upper, upper side of the Hyde area, known here as "Hyde Park." (laughter) And Gerald Friedman was a potter who was supporting himself entirely by his pottery. I was fascinated then to watch him. I had never seen anyone work on a potter's wheel before. In fact, I switched from drawing to pottery after that. I went to Bill Neely's pottery class right after that to learn to throw on a wheel, and Gerald Friedman was in there and Conway Pierson, Jiggs Pierson, who now teaches at UCSB, and Ed Schertz, who was a potter of some note here, was also in the class, and some of 00:18:00the pottery people who have continued with it were also in the class. And it was a very high-energy class, lots of practical jokes, but lots of work done. And afterward we had these great seminars with food and wine and lots of talk and--but people would come in from other classes too after the other classes closed up. We had a great group afterward.

BENET: How wonderful.

HILL: It was really a marvelous spirit.

BENET: Do you remember the date, approximately, of those classes?

HILL: It was in the late fifties.

BENET: How long did you continue with the pottery itself?

HILL: About ten years.

BENET: For personal growth?

HILL: Yes, and I was a member of the Santa Barbara Potters Guild when it first started. Then when we moved up here--actually, when we started building on this house, it did cut down a little bit, although I did have a kiln where we lived down in Sycamore Canyon. I did some low-fire work of my own at home. It's the stoneware with the glass.

BENET: Were you selling pottery?

HILL: Yes. But when we moved up here we had this tremendous amount of work to finish. We moved into a place next to the house we're living in now. Actually we bought it when it became available, and we had to fix it over to rent to be able to afford to keep it. So we took time off this house and spent a couple of 00:20:00years, I guess, on the other one. But I sold all my pottery equipment just about then. I just couldn't see in the future that I was going to have time to do it and still handle what we'd taken on. But I still go to pottery shows, and I buy other people's pottery and I appreciate it. There are times when I would really like to get my hands in there and throw some more.

BENET: So when you started building the other house, did you work on it full time?

HILL: No. My husband is an optometrist and works daytimes at the office. We would come on weekends, and work only on weekends. But we spent, you know, most all our time on weekends working.

BENET: You were still raising the children, too?

HILL: Yes, and in fact the house we were living in Sycamore Canyon we also built a good part of. It was a pre-fabricated house built by--it's called Nelson Way. They put in the slab, the rough plumbing and the framing and wiring, and you did all the finish work. We put up plaster board and any kind of--you know, we put in all the windows and did all the painting, plastering, laid the floors, etcetera, and any other type of extra things you wanted, we did. We did a fireplace and some wood paneling, things that weren't included in the regular thing. We built a barbecue, a brick barbecue, outside and a patio, and then we added a porch to the back, too. So that was our first building experience, and by that time the kids were in diapers. (laughter)

BENET: Do you remember the address on that place?

HILL: Uh, 259, I think, Dawlish Place.

BENET: Does it still exist?

HILL: Yes. It wasn't burned during the Sycamore fire. The house next to it, my mother's, was burned, but this place was not. So it does still exist.

BENET: And what is the address of your present place on Mountain Drive?

HILL: This one? It's 231 East Mountain Drive.

BENET: And the first place you were describing?

HILL: 229, next door, 229 East Mountain Drive.

BENET: Okay. Thank you. When did you actually move up to Mountain Drive then?

HILL: Oh, it was in the sixties. I don't know. You'll have to ask Stan.[1]

BENET: We'll check that date.

HILL: I really don't remember. We worked on it so long, it was almost a surprise when we did move up here. We were so used to working. And we did move to the place, 229, first. We stayed there for two years while we worked on this place.

BENET: Can you describe the community when you first became acquainted with it?

HILL: Ah, yes. We were all similar in that we all had small children, we were all doing housework, and after the work was done in the evenings, the children were fed and then we usually went to someone's house and had food together. And at that time we were all involved with Adelle Davis, and the sort of 00:24:00health--natural foods movements.[2] We were making our own yogurt. In fact, Bobby Hyde was the one who sort of started that, and I remember the first time I saw a homemade yogurt was at his house. At that time yogurt came in little straight-sided cylinder jars, and they...

BENET: Like Continental yogurt?

HILL: It didn't have a screw top. It had a sort of a paper cap like they used to put on milk bottles back when we had milk bottles. (laughter) But I remember that the Red Mountain wine, jug wine, was served in yogurt glasses. Horrors to the wine purists now. And there was a great midden of yogurt glasses on the Hyde property that was discovered, oh a few years ago, when the land was sold off and 00:25:00they started bulldozing. They did uncover a great pile of yogurt glasses. And I remember Bobby Hyde making a remark at one time that when archaeologists went through here and discovered the remains going through this trash heap they were going to call this the "Yogurt Glass Culture." But along with the natural foods, we all baked our own whole wheat bread--I found out later our kids traded off their sandwiches at school to get that good old soft Wonder bread. And we all nursed our babies. You could go to--you could take your little kids, you know, to a dinner party and put them to sleep in a basket or on a bed or so on, and people would be nursing babies at the table. I loved the great natural feeling of things, and the feeling that you didn't have to farm your kids out somewhere 00:26:00else while you went to be with adults. The kids were with the adults, and someone was always sort of keeping an eye on what they were doing. We watched each other's children. And it was nice for the children, too, because they were included in adult groups to some extent, according to their ability, and it felt good to me.

BENET: So you were describing potluck dinners?

HILL: Yes, potluck dinners and a lot of homemade things. Wine was a good part of it. In fact, we did grow fairly equally into a study of wine and growing wine, and Stan became a member of the California Society of Oenologists. We planted wine grapes here. And there was one member of Mountain Drive, Dick Johnston, who 00:27:00owned a radio station, who had a--I can't remember if it was weekly or bimonthly--program called, "The Vintage Hour." And we would choose--a number of us on the panel would choose either a variety of grapes, either horizontal or vertical tasting of a number of vineyards. It went on for, I guess it was an hour; it seemed like half an hour, and it was quite popular. And it helped us increase our knowledge of wines. I'm interested to see there are classes now, and there's a big growth of wine in the local Santa Ynez Valley and further north. It's kind of interesting to know that we were sort of part of the beginning of that.

BENET: Do you still have some grapes growing?

HILL: There are a few. There's an Aleatico vine and a couple of Chardonnay vines which are still persisting, but we did have some kind of a disease in our grapes, and also we have a whole cellar full of wine and sort of decided we probably have enough there to drink the rest of our lives. Now we have avocados and grow different things.

BENET: Sandy, along with your interest in wine and wine growing, what other kinds of plants or foods were you growing on your property?

HILL: Well, along with the interest in wine came food, and we had a weekly--usually every Saturday night--dinner party together with someone, in 00:29:00which wine was sort of the main character and food would arranged around the wine. And I guess I'd always been interested in cooking, but discovering the wine really increased my interest, and we all did a lot of research and ended up, not exactly competing, but being encouraged (laughter) by good dinners to make one even better. And we had some San Francisco friends who used to come down and visit and were quite a stimulus in getting the good food going because the woman, who was known as Fox King, was a very good cook. She particularly 00:30:00liked provincial, sort of peasant style cooking, which went right along with fresh garden produce. Visiting them in San Francisco in North Beach really got me going on this theme. And so, I believe it was then I really started--we all did--raising our own tomatoes and garlic and eggplant and good lettuces and green beans, anything seasonal. We had harvest dinners in the fall where people donated their produce. We visited one another's gardens and passed on 00:31:00information about what seeds were best and so on. In fact, I still carry this on with Gill the Gardener. But it was Fox King who really got things going in the cooking end. Well, let's see. What else did you...

BENET: Let me interrupt for a second to say that you're the most fantastic cook I've ever known, and I've had many of Sandy's meals, and I can't imagine a better, more delicious food treat. Sandy, in addition to growing her own food, makes delicious, outrageous desserts. (laughter) After last week's taping of Stan Hill, she treated me to some delicious goodies, brownies I think they were.

HILL: We were just going through a chocolate fix then. (laughter)

BENET: Well, you were describing these potluck dinners and these community activities. How was it to be a young woman in the community?

HILL: Well, I would like to say in today's look at things, we were not liberated women. But on the other hand, one of the advantages, I think, were we were treated like women, and the so-called "womanly arts" were appreciated. We probably spent a lot more time for instance, at home with children and cooking and so on than people do now, since I believe it was much less expensive to live 00:33:00then. You didn't have to have two people working in a family. The rents were cheaper. Actually our land that we bought here was $2000 an acre, and we paid it off $50 a month with I think it was 5% interest, something like that. It's unheard of now. We had a lot more time. Things were a lot more leisurely, and we visited among ourselves with our children. I think it was easier than women have it today. At least it fits with my tastes, I'll say. I did enjoy it all.

BENET: Could you describe any of your women friends at the time, the first ones?

HILL: Barbara Neely was my special friend, and Peggy Lane, who at that time was 00:34:00married to Frank Robinson--she was Peggy Robinson then. She had five children, Barbara had six, we had three, and we used to take the children on camping trips. And of course there were many neighborhood excursions which were the most fun, particularly, there was one around Easter time when we went to Pope Valley, which is inland from the San Francisco area.

BENET: Was this a traditional excursion?

HILL: Yes, just about every Easter we went together, sort of in caravan, camping. And we would stop at the wineries and have picnics from place to place. Our other special friends were the Stacks, John and Marge Stack, and their three 00:35:00children. In fact, we met them the first day of kindergarten at the Cold Springs School where all the kids went. In fact, I found out later that the principal, Mr. McCauley, referred to them as the "Mountain Drive Indians." (laughter) And we've all stayed friends all through the years. Our children all went through school together. I remember when they graduated from junior high they got to go to the Victory Cafe, which was their treat. Another favorite restaurant for the children was Arnoldi's Restaurant, because they were very good to children there. It wasn't the separation as much that I see today of people going out and leaving children at home. I expect there were times when we would have liked to have gone (laughter) out and left the kids, just to have some completely adult 00:36:00entertainment, but not very often. It was really fun. It was easy to take the children because everyone else was.

BENET: So you enjoyed the supportive atmosphere of the Mountain Drive community?

HILL: Absolutely. You didn't have to spend a great deal of money on clothing. Things were pretty casual; in fact, very casual. New clothes were almost frowned upon, and your oldest jeans were treasured, and old beat-up tennis shoes were a pride, lots of holes and so on. In fact, I think Bill Neely was the most outrageous that way. When we were kidding about his old beat-up tennis shoes--his were worse than anyone's--I said if he died before I did I was going to have them bronzed. And he did actually die recently, but I don't know if his 00:37:00son saved his tennis shoes for me, but I really just never (laughter) could go over there and get them. It sounded--it started as sort of a joke, but I just really couldn't face up to that.

BENET: I don't blame you. What were your environmental interests when you first came to Mountain Drive?

HILL: I think Rachel Carson's book, "Silent Spring," was out about that time. I know we were involved with Adelle Davis' natural food cooking. In fact, she was invited up here and did have a meeting with the community after one of her lectures here in Santa Barbara. And our gardens were all done with natural 00:38:00composts. We did not use poisonous sprays. In fact, I did work with the Community Garden down in town for a few years, too.

BENET: Helping them?

HILL: Yes. What's the old hotel that was on Garden Street, the Mirasol? I guess that's what it was. I worked in that garden, and for a number of years I did the two-week-turn-it-every-day (laughter) compost pile until I had a little back trouble. Now I have one, well actually I have three bins, and I end up with about three bins of compost a year now. But I still do it. We separate all our 00:39:00trash. We have a narrow road and we don't have trash pickup down here, so about once every month or six weeks we go to the dump with cans, and we recycle all of our bottles and papers. And with the vegetable material I make compost and bones from meat we burn in the fireplace. In fact, our only heat is the fireplace. So far so good. So I guess in that way I'm still keeping up my feeling about environmental concerns. Stan and I have a slight dichotomy of interests over the airplane, which I consider a recreational vehicle. However, with his talents and 00:40:00his mechanical ability and so on it's the thing he just enjoys to do more than anything. And I appreciate tremendously his skill and work and so on. But on the other hand I do like to do things with hand tools whenever possible. I have a rototiller and once a year he'll rototill the garden for me, but the rest of the time I do everything myself with a shovel and hand tools. I enjoy doing it. I just don't like the idea--I believe in power tools to avoid a lot of drudgery, but on the other hand I like to limit it if possible.

BENET: I know along with your interest in your own plants you've been involved with the Santa Barbara Botanic Gardens. Would you describe your connection with the Gardens.

HILL: Yes. I took an adult education class on the trees of Santa Barbara from 00:41:00Will Vitale, who was City Arborist, I believe. I found out that I have a good memory for names, and what I was doing was memorizing the names of everything, and he encouraged me to take a botany class to learn how to use a botanical key myself. So I did. I went to City College when I was fifty, which was my first college, (laughter) and I went rather timidly, feeling that I was quite a bit older. I almost sneaked in and felt really guilty, and I found out there were a number of older people there, and the kids treated me just like one of them. I helped some of them, in fact, with their homework. I had a marvelous time, and also I learned how to use a botanical key. It was one of the most valuable 00:42:00experiences I've ever had. Since then--it gave me a great boost as far as my interest in botany, and I did end up going to Switzerland for further study, and in so doing met a whole lot of other wonderful people.

BENET: How many other people on the Drive share your interest in botany?

HILL: Peggy Lane, who teaches at the Botanic Garden and also a lab at City College, and actually Gill Johnston, who writes a weekly column for the newspaper.[3][4] "Gill the Gardener" is not so involved in the botanical nomenclature end of it. However, 00:43:00he's very interested in growing things--the gardening end of it. In fact, I've gotten a lot of tips from him as far as varieties and so on. We share a lot of our other gardening interests there. And Bill Neely's son, Chris, also has a very nice garden. And Stevie Sheatsley here on the Drive has a water garden and also a very nice orchard, which is mulched with clippings from Duke McPherson, who is a professional gardener here at the top of the road, and who quite often comes down here, fortunately, and dumps his chippings that he's done on his jobs, when it doesn't include any bad material I don't particularly want. So there are a number of gardeners up here.

BENET: Could you describe Stevie Sheatsley's water garden?

HILL: Yes. Stevie is a pioneer type of person. She decided she wanted water lilies, so she did a great deal of research and study and had her husband build her a pool, planted it, and sort of learned as she went along. Now she actually has a business employing a number of people, and I know two years ago she won first prize at the Flower Show with their display of her gardens. And she started me out with a couple of plants, water lilies.

BENET: She also has lotuses.

HILL: Yes, oh. Actually I didn't get them from her. I got some seeds. I love starting things from seeds, just this challenge to see if you can grow exotic 00:45:00things from the seed. I did grow lotus from the seed, but I have it in a container that is too shallow, and I'm afraid we're just going to have to build another pond because it's never bloomed, but it's surviving. You know, the leaves--it puts out lots of leaves every year, but it's not deep enough. I realize it needs deeper water for it. So one of these days...

BENET: Let's take just a little break right now. Sandy, I've wanted to ask you a little about family life, and how it was to raise your children up on Mountain Drive.

HILL: Well, one of the things that concerned me a bit up here with our group picnics and what not, camping or going into the various pools around here, 00:46:00people didn't wear bathing suits. And our children were used to it, but I was concerned because occasionally if they would have a friend up from school how things would be handled. The children seemed to realize that things were a little different up here than they were down below, and they never indulged (laughter) in removing--they wore bathing suits if we went swimming in a pool and so on. Some of the children actually did take their suits off and go in with ours and thought it was fun and so on, but I don't know if they mentioned it when they got home. Children seem to have a sense about such things. The only time that I do remember there was a little conflict, when the kids, when our 00:47:00daughter started kindergarten, playing on the monkey bars. The principal at the time wouldn't let them hang upside down on the monkey bars unless they wore shorts apparently. Nothing was mentioned at first until I noticed my daughter sort of hitching up her dress, and I said, "What do you have on?" And she had shorts underneath her dress. And I said, "Why are you wearing shorts?" And then she told me, "Mr. McCauley won't let us hang upside down on the monkey bars because the boys might look at our pants." And I thought, "The world is creeping in." (laughter) But they never thought about it until then. There was a little adjustment between, a little more open ways up here and some of those of their friends at school.

BENET: How did those ways contrast to how you were raised?

HILL: I'm trying to think of--I don't recall seeing either one of my parents undressed. So I was not raised that way. In fact, when we first started coming up here, and at that time one of the favorite picnic spots for the Mountain Drive community was the Gaviota Hot Springs, and the first time we went our friends very unconcernedly removed their clothes and jumped in the hot water, hot pond we just sort of gulped and followed suit. I know I felt at the time, you know, like everyone must be looking at me. But after the first time there was no discomfort, and we found, in fact, it was so pleasurable to be in the water without a suit that we never bothered about wearing suits again unless we 00:49:00were at the beach or some public place where it would be an affront not to do so.

BENET: Could you describe some of the hot tubs you had on the Mountain Drive.

HILL: At the time we were building our house we had--it was in the plan that we were going to have a hot bath here so that we wouldn't have to drive somewhere else. One of our very good friends, John and Marge Stack, were caretakers at that time at the old Hot Springs Club at the top of Hot Springs Road. They were caretaking the house, and we used to go up there. It was so pleasant to have a dinner party and put the kids to bed and everybody would get into the hot bath. It was a very deep pool. You could stand, you know, up to your chest in 00:50:00water--when you stood up it was that deep--and talk, philosophize. And we always said at the time how nice it would be to have one right at your home where you wouldn't have to go up. So we were so slow in building our house that--actually we never did build one until a couple of years ago. But some new friends of ours who had moved up to Mountain Drive and were building a house--or actually weren't moving to Mountain Drive, they were friends, but they lived in the Mission Ridge area above the reservoir--they put one in with a Jacuzzi. And for a long time they were a big center for weekend parties. In fact, they had a swimming pool also, and you could sit in the hot bath until you got really warm and then just practically roll over into the cool pool. It's the most wonderful 00:51:00contrast. We had a lot of nice parties there and gatherings.

BENET: So far, Sandy, you've described a lot of the pleasurable aspects of living up on Mountain Drive. Perhaps you could talk about the hardships like bringing in water and roads when you were first building.

HILL: Well, when you mention roads it immediately brought forth the year that--you see we just had a dirt road down to our place, a long steep south-facing road, and Bobby built roads according to his whim at the time. If there was a bird building a nest at the time and he didn't want to disturb it, he'd make a big loop around the bird and go on. He didn't go particularly 00:52:00according to property lines. So there had to be a whole lot of cooperation between people because the roads were not arranged along property lines. In fact, when we were building our place there was a large loop at the bottom of our main access road that went through a creek bottom and was not an all-weather road. It was flooded a good part of the year. Well during the rainy season you simply couldn't get through, you had to walk. And we wanted to have bricks brought in from Mexico--we were building an adobe brick house--so we rerouted the road with the help of our contiguous neighbor and put in a culvert and made a shallower curve so we could get big trucks in on it. And one year it was 00:53:00decided to pave the road so we would be able to drive in and out. Everyone used to have to park up on the top of Mountain Drive and carry things in, and if you didn't get your car out in time, you may be stuck down there for a few days and have to get a ride into work with someone else. So by the time we had arranged who was to do the job, Ernie Martinez, it was late in the year, and the only work he completed before the rains was to scrape the then slight surface off the road. It was completely bare. And then the rains cut loose. There was a big rain year. So for the whole winter we had (laughter) to carry disintegrating grocery bags all the way down the hill. At the time our oldest girl, Leslie, was going to school in Mexico City, and on the Christmas vacation she came home with one 00:54:00of her Mexican school friends who had just been visiting in Phoenix with another school friend in one of these all-electric push-button houses. And then suddenly--we were living in the little place next door with a wood stove--so he found out he had to carry his luggage all the way down this muddy road and into this little house we were living in with a wood stove. And we were having a big northern wind that night, a Santana wind, and the wind was roaring around the house and everything was full of mud and the electricity went out so we were using candles--this happens a lot up here when we have the big winds. And also there's large windows in this place that Stan and I had put, because we couldn't afford it, we had just put single strength glass in these giant, oh about three by four foot window panes. So the windows were bowing in and out (laughter), 00:55:00looking, you know, any moment like they might burst, and his eyes got very large and he looked around and said, "This isn't like the United States. This is like Mexico." (laughter) We did, eventually, get the road done. It's always been a cooperative effort, and every few years when there needs to be patching or so on, everybody kicks in a certain amount according to the distance they live down the road. It's a graduated amount, and it's always been--there's only been one person on the road who's ever refused to pay. I won't mention his name, but quite often, you know, you always have one that (laughter) doesn't go along with the group. But everyone was very cooperative. Stan runs his tractor up and down the road periodically to cut down grass. So we have a do-it-yourself road maintenance.

BENET: You were talking about property lines. Were there any other kind of conflicts with property lines during this building?

HILL: Oh, yes. Not so much during the building but after some of the pioneers were here. I recall one house that was--I think Tom and Jan Martin used to live in above the Neely's--when that was sold to someone for a great deal of money, after the original building, it was discovered that, I believe, part of Frank Robinson's was on their property or something like that. There was a legal tangle for a while until finally it was settled financially. Then also there was a kind of a battle between Bill Neely, whose wine cellar was really on the 00:57:00Hydes' land. He always referred to it as "my wine cellar," and someone would always come in and say, "You mean Bobby's wine cellar?" (laughter) You know it was just for fun there, but I think when the property was sold there was some arrangement made for that, too. As far as I know everything has been settled, but at probably a lot more cost than it was in the beginning. Things are different now. The County is very much with us. When we were first building things were pretty casual, and by the time we built our house we had it inspected and we did have inspectors. But before that things were rather innocently done. Things were uncontrolled, quite romantic, and (laughter) and much cheaper.

BENET: Okay, I'd like to ask you a few more questions, but we're running out of tape. So I'm going to pause here and then switch to our next tape. I wanted to 00:58:00ask you about some of the sort of joyous occasions up on Mountain Drive, and perhaps we'll go into some of the festivals. Can you think of some events that stick out in your mind?

HILL: Well, I could start out at the beginning of the year. The first neighborhood party was Twelfth Night. It was really started at John and Marge Stack's house down on Cold springs Road, which is now in the middle of Westmont College. They had a visitor from San Francisco, Fox King and her husband, Peter, whom I've mentioned before, who had a Twelfth Night party one night complete with a wassail bowl and a bean cake. The bean cake, as it says, contained a 00:59:00bean. It was cut into the number of pieces that corresponded with the number of male guests at the party. Each one took a piece of cake, and the man who received the bean became king, the Bean King, and he chose a queen, and a court was chosen. It was encouraged that everyone come in medieval dress, and we ate food that was of the time--all hand food, roasted joints and breads and whatnot. I recall that the--it seems to be the second one we had--Ron and Phyllis Patterson, who now run the Pleasure Faires, came and were delighted with it and 01:00:00had one down in the Los Angeles area which was a big success.[5] We went to several down there, all in costume, and now they have them down south and up north, too. And that was where that one started was actually here on Mountain Drive. Then, after the Twelfth Night Party is Bobby Burns' birthday, which is also Frank Robinson's birthday.[6] It was first held in one of the big houses on upper Mountain Drive that's always been referred to as "The Castle."[7] It's a big stone house with a high, timbered ceiling, and it was built by Tommy White years ago. And one of our local members, George Greyson, who is a professional chef, would make the haggis.[8] Haggis is a sheep's which is stuffed with chopped innards and I think it's barley and spices and so on. And he would 01:01:00create a double haggis, two sheep's stomachs sewed up into a giant bag, and that was sort of the main food on the table. There was an address to the haggis, and there were poems that were read aloud written by Bobby Burns, and there was a portrait of Bobby Burns festooned with the flowers that were blooming at the time, usually acacia blossoms. The place was garlanded with acacias. A number of people had to leave the party early because of allergies. I remember that. (laughter) And there was a large buffet. All of these are potluck; people bring them. And Scotch shortbread. And we had a bagpipe band of volunteers from Santa Barbara, and let's see, Bill Richardson did a sword 01:02:00dance.[9] It was a big affair, and people were encouraged to wear kilt and sporran if they had them.

BENET: What is the date of this?

HILL: It's in January. I've forgot the date. I'll have to look up when Bobby Burn's birthday is. Then after that was Easter and the usual trip to Pope Valley and visiting of the vineyards, and a trip to San Francisco where we stocked up on cheeses and salamis and such. Then summer, the 21st was Midsummer Night party, which was Mountain Drive formal--which meant, you know, all the (laughter) exotic wear. Tuxedos, tail coats, you name it, jewelry, long white gloves, etcetera, and an elegant dinner with very fine wines. And one year we had the play within the play, you know, that Midsummer Night's Dream has. That 01:03:00was a very nice event. That was held at the Neely's. Then, let's see, there were always Halloween parties. I remember one year Bobby Hyde coming in a wonderful alligator costume, and Stan going as a bat with twelve-foot wings. There were a great number of costume parties. People knew about the event far enough in advance to really put out a good job.

BENET: Did you make Stan's bat costume?

HILL: Yes. Well, a part of it. Actually he did the structural work on the wings, of course. And, let's see, after Halloween I guess we've came full circle. Well, let's see. When we had the--when we started the Volunteer Fire Department, which 01:04:00was after the Coyote Fire,[10] we would have several dances or occasions for the Fire Department, too.

BENET: Can you describe some of the Wine Stomps?[11]

HILL: Oh my. (laughter) Well, the grape pick was always done on a Saturday. At first we used to go to Ojai to a man's vineyard named Lester Piraino. In fact, his brother, until just recently, had a grocery store in Old Town in Ventura--Lester Pirano's brother. And pick our grapes and come back Saturday night and get everything in preparation for the next day. And the next morning the men would get out early in Neely's wine-cellar area and run the grapes 01:05:00through a wire to take the stems off, de-stem them--for the white wine. That was quickly run through the presses and stored in large, five-gallon jugs. And while they were doing that they were considering the women who picked grapes the day before--who did the best job and so on--who should be the Queen. And meanwhile the women who were making wreaths from--we clipped quite a few grape vines from the vineyard and formed them into wreaths and did all the cooking, baking, etcetera for the big lunch. And on Sunday noon there would be large lunch on long tables on the Neelys' porch, and at the end of lunch the Queen would be 01:06:00crowned with one of the garlands which had been sprayed with gold paint. Then there was a parade from the Neelys' porch down the sloping trail into this little canyon area where the vat had been set up, and all the red grapes had been dumped into a mound. And the Queen, after a ceremony, would remove her clothes and step into the vat and crush grapes.

BENET: Were you ever the Queen?

HILL: Yes. Actually, it got to be a politic thing, you know; if someone's wife had been Queen one year, then someone else's wife was sure to be offended if she wasn't chosen next year. So all of us were at one time Queen of the Wine Stomp. 01:07:00(laughter) But after the Queen had made three or four turns to start the grapes then the children were put in.

BENET: Were they naked, too?

HILL: Oh yes, with garlands. I can see them now. We have pictures over the years of our kids. You can see them getting taller and taller. But at first, little kids hanging all around the edge, hanging onto the edge of this vat, which was practically, you know, up to their necks, with these serious expressions on (laughter) tramping the grapes. And then later as they matured and sort of reached junior high it was interesting to see the changes in them.

BENET: Can you describe the feeling of crushing the grapes with your toes?

HILL: At first it's like little rubbery marbles. When the Queen gets in it's very hard work because they're sort of rubbery and you really have to work to 01:08:00get it into slush. After they get to be mashed a bit, you know, it's much easier, much freer to move. But there really is a lot of work. And Bill Neely was always there, "Don't splash. Don't splash." (laughter)

BENET: Did they poke, the stems? Were there any stems?

HILL: Oh yes. There were stems. We made the red wine in the big vat, and there were stems on it. That contributes tannic acid to the wine and it will help it keep longer.

BENET: So did they poke the bottom of your feet?

HILL: No, no. It was soft. I mean, it was not uncomfortable at all. Then, when the children had crushed, they were taken out and everyone got in, the "growns" as it was said, got in. And by then things got a little rowdier. It was a little 01:09:00easier to crush, and there was singing and a great deal of in and out and marching around singing.

BENET: Any particular songs that were sung?

HILL: There was one that was called "What Shall We Do With a Drunken Sailor? Throw Him in the Wine Vat." It was like that old sea chantey, "What Shall We Do With a Drunken Sailor?" It was just paraphrased from that. And there were some French songs that were sung, vintage songs, none of which I care to sing right now. (laughter) But then there was a hose that was left running, and when you got out you could stand under the hose and rinse yourself off, and there were towels around to dry. So everyone stomped their fill, and then the vat was covered, people gathered up their children and their clothing and got everything 01:10:00together and went home. But then, Bill Neely and some of the men would help take care of the wine through for rest of the week. Depending on how warm it was, they would be on the skins for three days or so, and then they drained it off into big barrels and also into five-gallon water jugs. And then there were little valves putting on the top to keep bad bacteria from coming in. Then it usually went for a number of months before it was tasted to see how things were going.

BENET: Along with that activity I know there were Pot Wars going on in Mountain Drive.[12]

HILL: Oh yes.

BENET: Can you describe those?

HILL: Well they were sort of like what they have at the beach now, except it was mostly pottery, and the Pot War name came about because there was a sort of a friendly argument in design between Bill Neely's peasant pottery, which was low-fired Majolica pieces quite casually thrown with rough bottoms and so on, and some of the more refined and organic shapes of the stoneware, higher-fired work Ed Schertz. I guess that's where that name, "War," came from. My things against your things. But there was food sold and various other crafts--knitted 01:12:00hats and, good heavens, batiks. It was sort of a small sale like we have at the beach now. But it finally became so large that it attracted the attention of--it was just for friends originally and for people who were in some of the adult education classes would come up and so on. And it became so popular I remember seeing cars (laughter) parked on Mountain Drive all the way from Coyote Road clear down to Cold Springs, just, you know, parked all over the road. And then it attracted the attention of the tax people, and everyone had to write sales slips and collect sales tax and so on. So then it became sort of a nuisance after that. It just got too big, too popular. But I think a lot of people sort of discovered Mountain Drive at that time.

BENET: What year would you say that was?

HILL: That was probably the sixties; it was in the sixties.

BENET: Along with that activity I know there was something called the "Sunset Club." Could you describe what that was.[13]

HILL: Oh yes. Well that was--that started in the beginning, when people first started building their houses up here, I believe. When the mothers put the children to bed and made dinner and so on, the men sort of gathered at the local bachelor's house, Jack Boegle, who had a house high on Mountain Drive with sort of a parapet that looked out over the city and over Mountain Drive. And they would drink the local--actually at that time we were getting York Mountain wine. You bought a barrel every month or, depending on how much you drank. It was between nine and ten gallons. And they would sit up there drinking York Mountain wine until the mothers got the children all settled down, fed and put to bed and 01:14:00then they'd come home. And it was on Saturday night usually. And then there would be, usually, up here a dinner party at somebody's house, and people would bed their children down at whoever's was having the party.

BENET: Sandy, did the men always come home from the Sunset Club?

HILL: (laughter) Ah, no. There was usually a time they would regularly come, but I remember one time the dinner party was at my house and I forget what I was cooking, but I was concerned to know what time they were coming to know when to start the food. And they were kidding me because Sunset Club was at Jack Boegle's house. Jack Boegle worked for the telephone company, but he never had a 01:15:00telephone. So there was no way to call them, and I said, "Well how will I know when to start this?" "Well," they were kidding me, "You just let us know." So I (laughter) thought, "Aha, I'll get you." So I called one of the neighbors when I was ready, Gerry Friedman, who lived next to Jack Boegle, and I explained that I wanted him to take a rock and tie a note on it that said, "Dinner is ready," and throw it through the window. And he laughed, and I could tell by the way he was laughing he'd been drinking and was feeling a little good. So about half an hour later cars pulled up and here are (laughter) the men from Sunset Club to have dinner. They were looking sort of wide-eyed. Apparently, in great enthusiasm, 01:16:00Gerry had put the note on the rock and threw it through the window, and it went clear across the room and bounced off the fireplace and landed, you know, at their feet. It had caused quite a sensation; here was this rock with a note on it, and it said, "Dinner's ready." So after that they never told me to (laughter) let them know when dinner was ready. I offered to fix the window, but Jack thought it was such a good joke he fixed it himself.

BENET: The name, Bobby Hyde, of course, comes up again and again in our taping. Could you describe your first impressions of Bobby Hyde?

HILL: Bobby was slight and wiry. At the time I met him, the time we first met him was at the Stacks' house by the pool, and he was wearing an old army fatigue 01:17:00suit and a pork pie hat, which I found was, you know, his usual costume. He had sort of white wispy hair, wire-rimmed glasses that usually slid down on his nose, and he was a deceptively fragile-looking man. But I remember when we finally decided to buy some land up here, and he took us all over the place, up hill and down dale, and practically walked the legs off us, you know, talking the whole way without even puffing. So he really was a pretty strong person in spite of being rather fragile looking.

BENET: Can you describe his wife?

HILL: Oh, Floppy was a real lady, a beautiful, beautiful woman. I'm sure beautiful all her life. And they lived in what you would call sort of a rough, 01:18:00peasant house, unfinished, and Bobby's rock collection or whatever he was doing at the time spread all over. And Floppy always had unexpected guests and was always cooking or doing something for somebody or finishing Bobby's projects. (laughter) And I remember one time--I remember her, I'll always remember her--at the time of the Coyote Fire. It started in the late afternoon just as the children were getting out of Cold Springs School. And so the mothers brought their children to our house down on Dawlish Place and went back up to try to save their houses. And of course, the fire raged on into the night, and I 01:19:00remember seeing a great glow of fire from our house. And a car pulled up, and it was Floppy with a casserole of food for us, because she knew that we had all the children. And she was barefooted. And I said, you know, "Floppy, where are your shoes?" She says, "Oh, I don't know." She said, "I left the house in such a hurry. I couldn't find them so..." You know. Well, she never got back to her house. You know, the house burned down, and that was that. But that's the way she was. She was always helping someone. She was very community-oriented and just a lovely person. I guess she and Bobby knew one another when they were quite young, but her parents didn't approve of him, and so they sent her to Europe to get her (laughter) away from him. Meanwhile she married someone else, and he married someone else, but they eventually did come together to be married 01:20:00and had a child together. But at one time I know she was engaged to Henry Cabot Lodge, and I know she was telling about she knew--when she was a little child she knew Theodore Roosevelt and sat on his lap, and he told children's stories. She was an elegant lady.

BENET: Did you have a lot of contact with the Hyde family?

HILL: Oh yes. Of course in buying the land from them, and then they were almost always, you know, at all the parties. And I remember when they adopted these six Mexican orphan children she was active in the Girl Scouts with me. And I remember one night we had Girl Scouts on a campout at Skofield Park, and after the kids were all settled down in their sleeping bags, Bobby, with a little smile 01:21:00on his face, went out to the car and came back with this big picnic jug full of daiquiris. The parents sat around the campfire (laughter) completely loaded.

BENET: Can you describe any of the other Mountain Drive people for me?

HILL: Like, uh?

BENET: Your choice.

HILL: Well, there's one person who never lived up here but has always been active and a friend of all of us is Cuthbert Chisholm.[14] In fact I believe he knew Bobby and was here in the very early days of Mountain Drive. He would be interesting to talk to. He was born in Hungary of English parents, and he's traveled all over the 01:22:00world, and is a marvelous story teller and one of our favorite people. I think he was a charter member of the Over the Bank Club. We have an Over the Bank Club up here.

BENET: Could you describe that?

HILL: (laughter) Well, the roads are rather winding. Now a lot of them are paved, but they used to be dirt and a little more casual, and I think people used to drink a lot more wine than they do now up here. And periodically--there was never enough room for parking--there were a number of occasions where people went off the road or backed off, slid off, or otherwise got stuck, and it was referred to as, "joining the Over the Bank Club."(laughter) You should talk to Cuthbert about this.

BENET: Can you describe Jack Boegle?[15]

HILL: Yes. Jack Boegle was a confirmed bachelor when we first came up here, and 01:23:00I think, seeing everyone with their wives and kids and so on, decided to--he had built a beautiful adobe house, building just a few bricks at a time, but very methodically. And when we'd all shout up at him on our way up to Cold Springs Canyon for a picnic he'd never come because he had this work set out for himself. He built a beautiful, a beautiful adobe house, one of the most lovely ones up here. And then he was also taking care of his invalid mother, not up here but I believe she was in a rest home. And when she died and he inherited some money he immediately quit the telephone company. He'd always wanted to travel and proceeded to make travels through the--mostly to France and to the 01:24:00South Pacific. And when he was in Japan he met and married a Japanese girl. And Stan and I drove to Los Angeles to meet them, off the boat. I remember having trouble with the car--everybody up here had car trouble--and wondering, you know, if we were going to make it in time. But he married Su-chan and brought her back to his beautiful bachelor adobe. And her tastes were not the same as his; she was completely enthralled with everything that was American, and I remember one of the ladies here taking Su-chan, as we called her, on a trip to Tijuana for the first time, and as they were coming out she saw, you know, the vendors that come around your car. They were selling these great tall sort of 01:25:00Egyptian art nouveau plaster cats, and she thought they were marvelous. So she bought one, and she just loved it. Lorna, this other girl, encouraged her, "Well, if you like it, buy another one." So I guess Su-chan brought these plaster cats and very proudly displayed them for her husband who (laughter) was absolutely appalled, I guess, but he didn't want to hurt her feelings. But I guess--I understand that they had a terrible accident and fell off the fireplace or something (laughter) shortly after that. Oh, dear.

BENET: So how did other people adjust to coming to Mountain Drive, these outsiders?

HILL: Well, usually they came to parties and--you mean people who came and settled--new people up here first?

BENET: Right.

HILL: In fact, in order to buy land from Bobby, you had to be sort of accepted, 01:26:00and at that time the community was made of people who had similar interests and got along, you know, well together. Since land values have gone up so much and also there's been a little attrition in divorces or various things like that where land cannot be kept or can't afford to be kept. Then there are a few houses built around here now that are very expensive, and they're not adobe or, you know, they're not the same style as most of the places that were here before. Some things are changing.

BENET: How do you feel about the changes?

HILL: Well, huh, I certainly liked it the way it was. Most everyone likes to 01:27:00live in a nice quiet place where there are no street lights at night and you can see the stars, and are reasonably free about what you can do or not. Or if you turn a light on in the middle of the night it isn't going to shine in your neighbor's house. But I can certainly see, you know, why people want to live up here. It's a beautiful spot, and it's quiet. There's a nice view of the city, and there's not a lot of traffic. But on the other hand the more people who move up here the more, you know, difficulty there's going to be with noise, traffic, lights, etcetera. So I suppose it's inevitable that it changes, but there is a water shortage. We are rationed with water, and we have been since the sixties. And so there is a limit to how many people can build up here, although there have been a number of wells that have been dug. And I don't know what's going to happen if people's wells, you know, go dry, if Montecito Water will take from 01:28:00the rest of us to give to them I don't know. But time will tell.

BENET: What kind of things have stayed the same?

HILL: I think there's still a fair closeness between neighbors up here, which is one of the nicest parts of living up here, the sense of community. Now our children have grown up, and many of them have children of their own, but there are several--the Neely family--the younger generation still lives here and are raising their children here, and the Robinsons' daughter lives here with her children. And I know our children would love to live here (laughter) eventually, you know, if they could afford it. But there's still visiting and contact 01:29:00between people.

BENET: Do you still have the potlucks?

HILL: No. Actually the younger generation does. The younger generation is still carrying on Twelfth Night and some of the parties, and some of us heave ourselves out away (laughter) from our television sets to go. And we're invited.

BENET: Sandy, we were just cut off at the end there. You were starting to talk about the younger people carrying on the traditions.

HILL: Yes. Our children are still doing the Grape Stomp and picking grapes. And Twelfth Night. And there are Halloween parties. And, oh yes, and in the Spring there's--I forgot to mention the Easter Egg Roll--they're still doing the Easter Egg Roll, and it's interesting now to see them with their little kiddies walking 01:30:00around with baskets by the hand, going through--there are still a few fields where you can put this on. There's always a prize egg, and the prize egg will get money or something that's desirable to the kids in it. I remember back in the sixties it seems to me there was one prize egg that had some pot in it, (laughter) but that's frowned upon now.

BENET: You do a fast walk or a hike with some Mountain Drive friends every week?

HILL: There's about a six-mile walk--actually it's three miles up East Mountain Drive as far as El Cielito Road, which is a lovely morning walk. And we find out we can still eat just as much as we used to (laughter) as long as we walk regularly. It's very pleasant.

BENET: How many times to you do that?

HILL: Oh, maybe four times a week.

BENET: And who are the women you go with?

HILL: For a number of years I went with Lilliane Smith, and since her husband has retired they get up later than I like to go. I like to go at 7:30. Now there's a woman who lives down on Alameda Padre Serra who would very much like to come and live up here, who comes up here and walks with me. And sometimes I simply walk by myself. I'm trying to get Stan interested in going, and I think he will, too, soon.

BENET: Okay. I want to thank you very much for all your wonderful answers, and hope to talk to you again.

HILL: Thank you, Linda.