Christine Walden Interview

--(Interview begins)--

REMAK: We are in the Conference Room at the Art Museum. It is August 30, 1986, and this is Roberta Remak. Before we start talking about Mountain Drive, could we get a little of your personal background? Can you tell us where and when you were born and what your family was like?

WALDEN: Okay. I was born in Cincinnati, Ohio, in May of 1943. I have one older sister and my parents. My father was a civil service engineer, so we moved around in my childhood to several different government projects and ending up in a Navy base when I was in high school. And then I went away to college. I went to several colleges: Chico State College and Cal Berkeley, ending up at UCSB 00:01:00where I graduated in 1966. And at that time, when I graduated from college, I had a close friend who was moving up to Coyote Road. So he and I and several friends rented a house on Coyote Road, and that's how I ended up on Mountain Drive.

REMAK: That's interesting. What did you get your degree in?

WALDEN: Sociology. A nice useful degree.

REMAK: Did you take any art courses at the time?

WALDEN: No. I never was interested particularly in art at all. I mostly avoided art classes as a matter of fact.

REMAK: What was your first impression of Mountain Drive?

WALDEN: Well, the house that we moved into--my friends and I were all recent college graduates--and it had a big swimming pool, and as such was a big draw for the neighborhood. And it was a gray house. It had a big old A-frame, not too 00:02:00old, as it had been built by the people whom we were renting from.

REMAK: Who were they?

WALDEN: Gene McGeorge and his wife--I only met her a couple of times and I can't even remember her name. Oh, Pauline McGeorge. Pauline had left and moved to Canada where she was teaching art. And Gene and his new mate, Kajsa, were still around, and we were basically renting from them. Anyway, the pool was a big draw, and it was quite the thing for us. There was a lot of nude bathing, and people came and went at all hours, and were leaping in and out of the pool. When we originally moved there, there were four of us living there, and there was an amorphous group coming and going in various trailers and out-buildings. (laughter) Another man was living down below the kitchen. The house was in two separate sections, which I never admired at the time, but which I subsequently built my house like as well. And so there were paths that went back, cut back 00:03:00across the canyon up onto the lower areas of Mountain Drive. And it all seemed quite outback to me. We got used to it quite quickly, actually. (laughter) All of us enjoyed the--well almost all of us. One couple that moved in with us moved out in a month or two because they didn't really enjoy the ongoing revelry around the swimming pool, and they were replaced by someone else.

REMAK: Was anyone still in school at the time, trying to study for exams?

WALDEN: Actually, I believe that one of the men, Jerry Haggarty, I think he was working for his master's degree while we were living there, as a matter of fact. I can't remember whether one of our other roommates might have also been in school, the man who replaced the couple.

REMAK: The rest of you then had jobs down in Santa Barbara?

WALDEN: I worked briefly, for just a couple of months, for the Registrar's Office out at the University, and that I did not care for at all--although I like it there now. And then I worked mostly doing sort of odd jobs, modeling for art classes and doing just whatever I could do, waitressing or things like that. I didn't really get a full-time job at that time.

REMAK: You've worked for Elizabeth Fortner?

WALDEN: Right.

REMAK: And how long had you been with her?

WALDEN: Well, I started that job it must have been about 1969, when it was the Galleria del Sol, and I worked for Betty Scheinbaum.[1] I'm not sure if you might know her.

REMAK: Yes, I've heard of her.

REMAK: And so I worked a day or two a week for Betty for a number of years. And then when Betty left the Galleria went through several incarnations, and ended 00:05:00up being bought by Elizabeth. I didn't work there for a few years, and then I started working there again. I started doing bookkeeping and secretarial sort of work about five or six years ago, and became the manager in--let me see--about four and a half years ago. And I worked as a manager for four years.

REMAK: I meant to ask you what your present job is at the University.

WALDEN: I am working as a secretary-receptionist in the Environmental Studies Program.

REMAK: That must be very interesting.

WALDEN: It is wonderful. My new--or not to say my new, for the last ten years--my interests have sort of focused on natural sciences, biology, botany--more botany than biology--and geology. So that's right up my alley.

REMAK: Was that partly because of your experiences on Mountain Drive?

WALDEN: Well, yes. We one day took a trip up to the Tea House on Mountain Drive, my friend Ed[2] whom I was living with, and friend of ours, John Reed. And we found this great plant, and I said, "Oh, it's so 00:06:00beautiful." And John said, "Well, just take some. It'll grow." So I picked some, I took it home and stuck it in the ground and it grew, and I was stunned. (laughter) I couldn't believe it. And, boy, from then on I got into plants hot and heavy. The very idea that I could take a cutting and make it grow was heavenly.

REMAK: Let me ask you for a physical description of Mountain Drive. Was the road paved, for example?

WALDEN: We were on Banana Road for the first year I was there, and that was nearly paved. It had been paved and highly rutted.

REMAK: I've seen references to Banana Road. Explain that to me.

WALDEN: It goes off of Coyote Road, and the story has it that there was an old banana orchard up there at one time. I never saw too many bananas there myself. But it sort of dog-legs off of Coyote Road and winds up and around, and allowed 00:07:00the people who were living there at the time who were pretty closely allied--in the past--to drive up Banana Road to get to get to Mountain Drive. East Mountain Drive was paved. West Mountain Drive, as I recall, was not paved; from Coyote Road over was a dirt road, and our driveway that went down to the house where Ed and I lived subsequently--I stayed in the Banana Road house a year and then moved in with Ed at 267 East Mountain Drive, which was down the hill by the mailboxes. Our road was not paved either, so when it rained we had to park our cars up on top and walk in--carry the laundry out and the groceries in.

REMAK: Someone said that's why so many people wore boots.

WALDEN: That's right. During the rainy season everybody was always wearing boots. You were skeptical of anyone who wasn't. (laughter)

REMAK: What about the houses? You said lived in an A-frame. Had someone put it 00:08:00up themselves?

WALDEN: Gene and his wife--which was really before my time. By the time I got there they had separated and, as I say, Gene had started living with Kajsa. But they had built this house. They'd built a kitchen with a bedroom above and a bedroom below--they had four or five kids--which they lived in while they constructed this big dream of a house, which was a big A-frame, huge living room, and had an upstairs and a winding staircase made out of railroad ties. It had a bedroom up there and a couple of bedrooms downstairs and there was a swimming pool there, and between these two structures was a lily pond, and it was quite the dream house. Gene once told me he always intended to put a breezeway between the two of them, but he just never got around to it. That whole house, I think, burned in the Coyote Fire--I mean not in the Coyote Fire, the Sycamore Canyon Fire.[3]

REMAK: Were there any adobe houses nearby?

WALDEN: The house next door to us was called the Adobe, and that was the Davidson house. And once again, by the time I got there the Davidsons had left, and it was, I believe at the time, was being bought by the Searcys, Ed and Di Searcy.[4] And they had, as it seemed to happen in most of those houses, any number of hangers-on coming and going. My time may not be quite correct. I think they may have bought that after I had been there for a while. I can't remember exactly. But there was sort of an amorphous group. And Di and Ed subsequently sold it to a sort of a communal group--three or four people who bought it and lived there for quite a long time.

REMAK: One of the things we've been interested in is what was daily life like in 00:10:00this somewhat, as you suggest, was a primitive environment. I mean, did you grow a lot of your own fruits and vegetables.

WALDEN: Yes. It wasn't until I had moved in with Ed, which as I say was a year after I had moved up there, in 1967 it must have been, I became sort of habituated to the entire thing. And he and I were building this house, an adobe, a round adobe house on Mountain Drive--an oval adobe, I think. And we lived in this old hut that was a war surplus old BOQ hut that was 16 feet by 16 feet, and which was added a little room here and a little room there and a bathtub outside and an outhouse. And we, during the course of the time we were there, we had all these chickens and goats and we grew a lot of our own food, and worked on the 00:11:00house and just worked around, planted trees and so on. It was really nice. It was a pretty basic existence. And then we had a daughter in 1970, and so that was pretty fun, too. And once again, at that time, you know, I was the braided mother, carrying Megan on my back down to milk goats. It was great though. For its time it was very nice, it was very enjoyable.

REMAK: You suddenly reminded me of something. Jo Gottsdanker mentions in her study that she seems to have seen a difference in the roles of men and women and that she thought life was rather hard for the women because of the physical labor involved in cooking and cleaning and taking care of the children, whereas the men were somewhat more at leisure to chat and play music and contemplate. 00:12:00Did you feel a difference?

WALDEN: Yes. I think that that was true in my own life, maybe not quite so much. Ed was very nice about helping me with the kids and changed their diapers and cleaned the dirty ones and took care of them when I worked. I was working at the Galleria Del Sol at that time, and he was better than most. But I was just telling my friends at lunch time--I don't know how we got into this--about the old Grape Stomps, that I had gone to two of them, and the first one--it was a long involved thing that you probably already have--you know we would go and pick grapes and them they would stomp them on the next day. And the first one I went to on Sunday when they were stomping grapes, I went home and was fixing my meal, and I came back and a Wine Queen had been elected. And I had a great time and stomped grapes and got in the hot tub and so on. And the next year for some 00:13:00reason I was around for most of the day on the Sunday before the dinner, and the Wine Queen got elected. And I said, "Well, I didn't get to vote." And Ed said to me, "Well, only the men vote." (laughter) And so I think that it might be quite true. I think that in a certain way the attitudes and values were somewhat progressive, but I think in terms of sexism the rules were perhaps even less advanced than elsewhere, that the women were often off in the kitchen getting coffee and bringing some more wine while the men were sitting around chatting or, you know, doing whatever. I think that's true. It's not that I myself--in my 00:14:00own situation, I liked like to work, you know, and I didn't mind the goats and the chickens and all of that kind of stuff. The thing that I would have objected to is that everybody should be working, not that everybody should be sitting around.

REMAK: I was going to ask you more about the special events like the wine making and that, but maybe before I forget, there were some special people there that are of interest to us. For example, did you meet the Hydes and their "six more?"

WALDEN: Yes. The Hydes--Bobby was quite old when I arrived there. Floppy was still taking care of everything, as she did up until the time she died more or less. And I didn't know either of them very well. Certainly, once again, I 00:15:00really think that Bobby was quite an extraordinary old fellow, and had probably been quite an extraordinary fellow from youth as well. And even in the days that I knew him he was going out and hiking around in the hills, very dynamic, writing. He once tried to hire me to be his secretary and go up and sit on his man-made lake in Painted Cave--which you've probably heard about, he had a houseboat there--and take notes of his writings. You really had to admire him. Nonetheless, that same sort of attitude prevailed there too, I'm sure. (laughter) People choose what they're willing to do, and I think that Floppy was happy, at least in what she perceived as her role, taking care of things and holding things together.

REMAK: She must have been very remarkable.

WALDEN: She really impressed me as being a very competent lady.

REMAK: Tell me more about Ed and his Pot Wars.

WALDEN: Well Ed--one thing, sort of major characters, was Bill Neely out there--I'm sure you've heard about him--who was a potter of long standing and taught at Adult Ed, and was quite well-known for his ceramics. And Ed also was doing ceramics at the time. I guess it probably started--Ed had been a probation officer--and I think that he took classes, possibly from Neely, but someplace anyway, got mud on his hands and decided to go for it, and became a part of it too. So, the Pot Wars--when I arrived they were quite well established--and they were really a lot of fun. You know, people would bring--it was in the turnaround by the Hydes' house--and people would bring whatever they had, you 00:17:00know.[5] There were relatively few limitations in terms of who'd gotten a permit or a resale number, or whether they met the Health Department standards, you know. Some people would bring bagels and cream cheese, homemade bagels, and whatever food that, you know, that people would bring, and lots of wine. They were really quite fun. Lots of trading.

REMAK: And other crafts?

WALDEN: Yes. People's weavings and just whatever anybody was making, you know, all kinds of things. And it was a good occasion for a party, too.

REMAK: How old was Ed when he started potting?

WALDEN: Well I'm not really sure how old he was, but I would imagine in his late twenties or early thirties.

REMAK: So he was a good deal younger than Bill Neely?

WALDEN: Yes, probably fifteen to twenty years.

REMAK: Did you meet the Johnstons? Gill Johnston?

WALDEN: Oh, yes. They were our next door neighbors. They were actually--Ed had bought the property where we were building our house from Gill.[6] Once again I don't know how much you've heard before, but Bobby sold the property for $2000 an acre, fifty dollars down and fifty dollars a month, to people whom he liked. And so Gill had bought two acres, and when Ed came along, he sold one to Ed at that same deal, $2000 at fifty dollars down and fifty dollars a month. And so they were quite nice people, and really very helpful. Audrey--they had the phone, we didn't have a phone, and so I used their phone when I wanted to do things. And when my son was born--he was born at home--Ed went down to call the doctor and say the child was on its way, and so Audrey came up and held my daughter in her lap while watching 00:19:00Jeremy be born and was very supportive. She's now actually doing--she took paramedics training and is doing sort of medical-type stuff. Always very interested.

REMAK: Is there anybody else, particularly when you first moved up there, of the original people?

WALDEN: Well, when I moved there--you know I am a Chrissy-come-lately here--but I'm sure people have mentioned Frank Robinson, who is quite an extraordinary guy and quite a talented guy.[7] And when I moved up there, there were Stan and Sandy Hill, he's an optometrist in town, and they had been building their house--once again, moved into a house that someone else had built on the property and built quite a nice brick house there.[8][9] And Michael and Laura Peake were living there. They were younger people.

REMAK: What did he do?

WALDEN: Michael? I think for a while he had a bulldozer and went out and bulldozed, and things around. I just ran into him the other day, and he's now working at a (laughter)--I saw him, but I was working at the university and he's working at some, I can't remember which, it may not Raytheon, but it's something along the Raytheon line, Delco or some electronics company in Goleta, eight to five. He's remarried and has another child.

REMAK: And Laura Peake? I've heard of her before.

WALDEN: She's still living there on East Mountain Drive.

REMAK: And is she an artist?

WALDEN: I don't really know--I think she has investments. I think she comes from a family with money, and I'm not sure. We bought our property, our hundred acres on West Mountain Drive, from Laura. Not that she's making a lot of money from us, but she may have other income, monthly income, too.

REMAK: Now we come to my favorite topic. Let me see how much of the tape is left. No we're fine. And that is, I have been just delighted to read about the special events, Bobby Burns' birthday, the wonderful Christmas pageant with the children and--maybe you can just run through some of those. You talked very briefly about the wine thing. Did you go up with them to pick grapes?

WALDEN: I did twice. I'd be glad to tell you what I know, but you'd be much better served by having someone who is more associated with the earlier times than me, because a lot of what I know was lore, although at the time that I arrived, many of the things were somewhat on the wane. For the Grape Stomp what we did was we went up Friday night, I think it was to Templeton if I'm not mistaken, or some grape ranch or farm or whatever--vineyard is what we call them 00:21:00(laughter)--and spent the night and then, you know, lots of partying that night, and then picked grapes the next day, and took them home that evening, I guess, and then stomped them on Sunday, as I recall.

REMAK: How many, a truck full of grapes, or more?

WALDEN: Oh, I think different people took their trucks and different people made wine. Ed and I made wine a few years.

REMAK: You mean separately?

WALDEN: Yeah, but the main one was at Neely's house. And it was really quite extraordinary. I have to say it was a very good party. And I'm sure the earlier ones were much better. You know you never know what is lore and what is not, of course. (laughter)

REMAK: But it was mentioned in the Grapevine, articles about a procession. Are 00:22:00people in costume?

WALDEN: Yes, people were wearing Bacchanalia and tight things and grape leaves in their hair and that sort of thing, in various stages of dress and undress. And the thing that brought this up at lunch, Megan was talking--my daughter was talking--about this movie, Seconds, which you probably heard was made up there at a big Stomp.

REMAK: Were you there?

WALDEN: No. It was also before my time. I arrived as the movie was opening, and we all went to the opening of this movie, where they had cut most nude scenes, of course. (laughter)

REMAK: Naturally. But the wine actually was under Bill Neely's labeling as it were?

WALDEN: Yeah. The wine was made at the Wine Stomp. As far as I know it was mostly--he carried it through after that. Stan Hill was also a winemaker of some 00:23:00repute, but I think that he probably--when Ed and I made it we had our own crusher and held off on the stomping with the bare feet.

REMAK: Did Bill Neely sell the wine locally under his own label?

WALDEN: No. As far as I know it was never really a commercial venture. He probably traded around and gave it away and certainly had it for his own use. But he did used to sell vinegar, (laughter) which might be an end product. I'm trying to remember. He called it "Wild Will Scaggs" or something like this vinegar that he sold from the wine that took a turn for the worst. (laughter) Yeah, he had a pretty good business there.

REMAK: Your own wine was just enough for family use and to give away to friends?

WALDEN: Yes, we just used it for our personal use.

REMAK: Would it always work?

WALDEN: Well, sometimes it was incredibly wonderful, and sometimes it was not 00:24:00that great, but most of the times it was pretty good. You know, the stuff that we made--you have to talk to Ed, because he would be a very good person to ask and much more into this than I. We made something that we called a "Partridge Eye," which is sort of an off-white wine which was sometimes very good. I'm afraid that winemaking is like everything else. You have to pay attention, and so (laughter) often--and there were some other variables like the grapes and sugar content and all this kind of stuff. But we had some very good wines.

REMAK: I'm intrigued with Robert Burns' birthday party, which was also, was it Gill Johnson's birthday?

WALDEN: I don't know. It could be.

REMAK: Did they still have the Robert Burns' birthday celebration with the haggis?

WALDEN: Yes. And that was George Greyson. Have you talked with George? He would 00:25:00be a good person.[10] He is really an interesting person, too, and he's still up on the Drive and has been there for years. And he's the one who used to make the haggis, and could just give you tale after tale of the Bobby Burns' parties, I'm sure, with people dressed in kilts and that.

REMAK: What was your favorite one of these special events?

WALDEN: Well, I think the Pot Wars, is what I liked. They were still more vital when I was there.

REMAK: Did a great many people come from outside? The Pot Wars?

WALDEN: Yes, they became, I think, more and more popular, and people developed mailing lists and posted signs and so on. They became quite large.

REMAK: Did that change the character of them?

WALDEN: Well, to some extent, although I think they mostly did maintain a pretty 00:26:00local flavor. You know, there was a lot of bartering and music, and people playing concertinas and this and that, which was all very interesting.

REMAK: Oh, here's the other question I wanted to ask you. And that was the sort of community projects. We found references to whole groups of neighbors coming in helping someone build a house or put a roof up or dig out a swimming pool or whatever. Did that happen when you were there?

WALDEN: To some extent. To some extent people were very helpful. A lot of the work on Ed's and my house, people would come by, and the bricks had been made by a sort of community effort. And I think that people did have the attitude of assisting one another, and actually that is still continued on our new place. 00:27:00People have been really nice about helping each other, you know, having a plastering party or whatever.

REMAK: That's nice. But it's always a party?

WALDEN: Well, sometimes, yes. Sometimes it a work day that ends up with--you have to have plenty of beer--or wine.

REMAK: We were also wondering about the effect on artists' creativity or desire to experiment or spread themselves into other creative areas that might have come from the interaction between the people who lived there. Do you think it 00:28:00was stimulating?

WALDEN: I think it was certainly stimulating. I think that some people were really dedicated to their art, and a lot more people became interested in doing that sort of thing. And there was a lot of sort of good-natured competition, and there was an open attitude towards creativity. People were encouraged. It was admired. Artistic endeavor was admired and held in high regard, you know. And so I think people were really encouraged to do that. All sorts of creative endeavor, you know. Music was another area where people would have their concertinas or their whatever that they were playing, and it was almost at all 00:29:00the parties there would be music of some kind or another. You know, just people expressing themselves and doing what they wanted to do.

REMAK: Then people could take the time from other things...?

WALDEN: Yes. Some people definitely had full-time jobs during the time that I was there, Gill being one, who always worked at the paper, and Stan was an optometrist. There was a lot of creative endeavor. Frank Robinson is a good example of someone who combined his creative endeavor with a job, that is to say having an architect's office downtown, which also was sort of a downtown focal point for gatherings. I think his office is in the same place; it's been down here in El Paseo.

REMAK: I see. I didn't know about that. But that was sort of a gathering point for Mountain Drivers?

WALDEN: Yes, in town. It was sort of a central area for people from Mountain Drive downtown.

REMAK: Well, who else was here in El Paseo?

WALDEN: Well, they had that little--well the restaurant was there, and I guess many people would gather there and drink wine in the afternoon, you know, after work.

REMAK: Did Pierre Lafond have his wine store in El Paseo then?

WALDEN: Not that I can remember. I'm really not sure. I was not a big hanger-around there. I don't know how much has--how many people have been interviewed. Have you interviewed Frank Robinson?

REMAK: You're my first interview in this project. We've interviewed about five people, and we're learning which questions to ask. Don't hesitate to say things 00:31:00because you think we may have got it from someone else who was perhaps one stage closer to it. I'm learning a lot.

WALDEN: Oh, no, not at all. I thought that I might be able to be more helpful in suggesting people whom you might talk to.

REMAK: Good. Why don't we do that then when the interview is over? I have an interest in the relationship between Mountain Drive as a community and, say, the larger community of Montecito or, even larger, of Santa Barbara as a whole. First of all, many of the people on Mountain Drive appear to have been involved in politics, or they were politically-aware actively. Were there people you 00:32:00think were important in local politics?

WALDEN: Not really that I know of. I do know that people were often actively interested, but I don't specifically know, during my time, of anyone who was holding an office. I remember that we did one time run Jack Boegle for Water Board, however.

REMAK: Did he win?

WALDEN: No he didn't.

REMAK: That was the Montecito Water Board?

WALDEN: Yes, the Montecito Water Board. And I think actually a lot of the relationship has been a bit of guarded (laughter) regard on both sides. That is to say, that the community up there perhaps felt a little bit threatened by the 00:33:00greater community, and I think at least the officials of the county, well, gave great leeway for some time, but now are coming through the entire community and have really started cracking down on it.

REMAK: For what?

WALDEN: For building violations which were sort of permitted and people looked aside twenty years ago, and now there's a new--I'm not sure if the county has gotten some new money or fresh blood or something--and there's been a real crackdown. As a matter of fact they wrote letters to everyone in the community asking to make an appointment to come and view their houses in case there might be some violations that they could discover--even people for whom they had no 00:34:00reason to suspect that there might be something there. And I think that it might be a bit--well, I'm sure there's other communities like these, too, Painted Cave is undoubtedly another one, where building was sort of allowed to proceed just as it could with, you know, not completely ignored by the county, but without any real serious enforcement. And so now they're attempting to enforce.

REMAK: What's that going to do?

WALDEN: It will be interesting to see what it does. Actually there's a number of legal actions that have been taken against people up there, and it's not really known what will happen. We're all just in the middle of it right now. If you read Gill Johnston's articles regularly, he was talking about this a while back, where even though he had built his house with a permit and this and that, and 00:35:00had no real cause for them to want to come and inspect--it would be just like if they said, "Well, we want to inspect every house in the blocks between Cota and Gutierrez between State and Milpas," or something. That is to say, the only reason that people were sent these letters was geographical reasons, because they were there. And so for some people it's going to be more difficult because it's going to require a lot of money to bring the houses up to code and to build the roads and do the water systems.

REMAK: What about the contribution of Mountain Drive to stimulating the arts in Santa Barbara. Did it?

WALDEN: Well, I actually would probably think so. I do think that there was a 00:36:00certain hedonistic atmosphere, but that provide, in some areas anyway, an openness, you know, an acceptance of new ideas. And also maybe in the one way, people having free time or making free time for themselves does enable them to do things, experiment, instead of always trying to just be making what would sell. And I think this was a conflict everywhere with artists. I think it's a difficult problem with artists to buy more time.

REMAK: Yes. Ed, for example, has always taught. Was it always at Adult Ed?

WALDEN: He's taught at Adult Ed for a long number of years, a long time. I can't remember. I would say it may be twenty years.

REMAK: There's a reference also in the papers about a--I think it's on 00:37:00Carrillo--a crafts center?

WALDEN: Oh, yes. That was before my time as well. Ed has talked about it, but I don't know. Actually, I that's when he started taking ceramics at Adult Ed and then got involved with that. I would like to say it's the Artisans--I can't remember what it was called now. But, anyway, he would be the logical person to ask. And actually I think he had a little studio there, and he went from being a hobbyist to an actual potter, and became adept at this stuff.

REMAK: You had visiting artists who came to stay for a week with a camper or a tent. Was the Mountain Drive community really larger than the people who lived 00:38:00there permanently?

WALDEN: I think that that's true, that people would come through and stay for a while and go off to other places, and then come back and stay some more. And it was a real draw. I think in its earlier days it was really quite a dynamic place. And my criticism about sexism is sort of unfounded, because that was before the time that those considerations were being made. I think that it was really an extraordinary place. By the time that I got there it had sort of 00:39:00declined a little bit. It had aged, you know, and I think that the heyday was on the decline. However, that's why I think this is a really worthwhile project, because I think that during the time that it was really in its heyday, it was quite an extraordinary place, and in a very positive way. There is, I think, tends--well, all things will (laughter)--and the sort of hedonism which allowed for a lot of artistic freedom and space, at one point, I think maybe in older people becomes more of a bad habit, (laughter) and it is what has happened to some extent. Now there are still people up there who are pretty extraordinary, and there still is, even with the younger people part of that idea of sort of 00:40:00cooperative effort and trying to make something worthwhile for everybody. This is another interesting thing, actually, with the younger people there, now that I've said that. I was talking about the young people who had come in, but a number of the offspring of these people are still there. Neely's kids, at least two or three are still living at his place, Chris Neely being one of them. And he's the oldest. And I know Jeff Neely is also there, and I'm not--I think Dana got--well I'm not sure exactly. And a number of the Robinson kids are still around, Frank Robinson's kids. Maia Kirwood, his daughter, is now living in across from us on West Mountain Drive. I think it was really an appealing place 00:41:00to be, a real upbeat sort of a place.

REMAK: To be a child in?

WALDEN: I'm sure it was. I'm sure it was to be a child. And a lot of the kids have stayed around. It's probably difficult having been raised in that sort of an atmosphere years before it--you know, I mean, it sort of moved into the beatnik era and the hippy era, which carried over some of the same ideas.

REMAK: The community started before that.

WALDEN: Yes, yes, exactly. It was ahead of its time for sure, and in really a positive way, in a real creative way.

WALDEN: The differences between the nineteen sixties and now, what are the major ones?

WALDEN: Well, the principal one is the rapid growth of buildings and people, you 00:42:00know. It used to be when I first lived there that you knew pretty much everyone in the neighborhood. And if you could just get into the neighborhood--when people would come to visit us, we didn't have any number sign on our house or anything like that, but when people would come to visit us we'd say, "Well, once you get on Mountain Drive just ask anyone." And this is no longer true. There's a lot more renters, you know, people who don't own their own homes. A lot more speculation, too, which I think has to do to some extent with the fact that the area to the east of us there in Montecito has been built up with all these large houses. And now our area looks pretty appealing. There's a lot of that sort of "mansionizing" going on--really a lot, and spec houses being built, and it's 00:43:00just hard.

REMAK: How do they plan the land?

WALDEN: Big money. That's all it takes. Well, you know, I mean, there were areas that were just not even sold. It becomes very appealing to sell something that you spent $2000 for, for $150,000. And there's really, you know, a lot of big houses being put in now, and I'm sure that is the direction of the (laughter) future.

REMAK: But do these special events still occur? I mean, is there still a wine crushing and still a Bastille Day?

WALDEN: There's not still a Wine Stomp. Oh, yes, Bastille Day. No. There's an occasional one that I know about. I'm not real big on these big parties, myself, 00:44:00and these things may be going on without my knowledge entirely. The Twelfth Night party, I think, is still carried on fairly regularly, where they elect a Bean King by whoever gets the bean in their piece of cake, and the Bean King appoints a court with the, you know, the Queen and this and that.

REMAK: No, describe that. I don't know about it.

WALDEN: It's been so long that I've been to it. But it would be a good question to ask somebody. That was another of those big parties that took place twelve days after Christmas in the first part of January.

REMAK: Is that all again with costume?

WALDEN: Yeah. It was in the old times. I haven't been to the modern one. I guess I went once, a while ago. And there's some new interesting things that are taking place, you know, attempts to form a volunteer fire department and the Firemen's Ball and this kind of thing, which is sort of an attempt to join the 00:45:00community together again. And somebody mentioned how a lot of the older members--not to say older, but you know, old time members of the community still there. And West Mountain Drive has sort of moved in the direction of individuals building their own houses, and you know, the more communal community-type activity on East Mountain Drive has more been--many of the people, a larger number of the people are living in houses that they didn't build themselves. And some of the houses have been sold once or twice.

REMAK: A couple of things I'm curious about that you mentioned briefly I'd like to go back to. One of them was you made some reference to the Painted Cave. What was up there?

WALDEN: Well, it's another community that's similar to Mountain Drive, in which, 00:46:00you know, people were buying land and trying to build houses, and this and that.

REMAK: That isn't the same thing as the Trout Club?

WALDEN: The Trout Club is, no, off to the side. When you go up San Marcos Pass, the Trout Club is off to the left, and Painted Cave is a turnoff that goes off to the right. And there's a small community which is, I don't really know what the history of it is, but it's a bunch of houses on small lots, quarter acre lots or something. And then, however, around that there were larger holdings. Twenty years ago, or maybe more, I can remember that people whom I knew were going up there and buying tracts at that time. And how long before that that was taking place I really don't know.

REMAK: Are you talking about the Trout Club or Painted Cave?

WALDEN: I know nothing about the Trout Club. I'm talking about Painted Cave.

REMAK: Oh good. I just wanted to be sure.

WALDEN: Yeah, no, no. People were, you know, once again it was large acreage which I assume someone bought and split up. And it was much easier to split property in those days than it is now, I can assure you of this. And sold the 00:47:00pieces of property to people who wanted to build there. And a lot people who built up there were self-employed, electricians, plumbers, probably artists too.

REMAK: Now was there power, electricity and water supply?

WALDEN: They have their own water company, and I'm not exactly sure where their water is generated from, whether it's a well of some sort. I believe it might be--actually I think they have a fairly large water source that they run, but I'm not sure if it's huge. Someone knows though. And the electricity--some people lived up there without electricity for a long time, but I know they have conventional electricity up there now, at least to many of the houses. This is where Jane Fonda has this ranch that I've forgotten the name of, and she I think has windmills that she produces electricity with and sells some of it back into 00:48:00the grid, or some such thing.

REMAK: What about the lake? You mentioned Bobby Hyde and the secretarial job. Can you tell me about the lake?

WALDEN: Well, at the time, it was--he had bulldozed out this big hole and I guess he had to pump the water into it. And the time that I went with him--I went again a couple of times with Ed--there was this old houseboat there. And it was really quite fun.

REMAK: How had the houseboat got there?

WALDEN: I'm not sure if he built it there, or he--it was not--he didn't buy this houseboat. Somebody built it and probably there. It was, you know, it was just a little, it was a room on a barge with some interior stuff which I don't really remember--some kind of furnishings or whatever.

REMAK: I'm surprised that the water didn't just sort of filter down through the 00:49:00bottom of the lake.

WALDEN: It sort of filtered down through the bottom. (laughter)

REMAK: Oh, and did he have to keep pumping water?

WALDEN: I believe he did. I know that he--I believe--I have some friends here living quite close to it, where I went to dinner the other night, and I take it the lake is more or less filled in now. At the time I was there, there were lots of reeds and very little water.

REMAK: How big was it?

WALDEN: Oh, gee. It was not a large lake. In terms of actual figures I would be hard put to guess. The edges were grown in with these reeds and there was, as I say, much open water (laughter) at the time.

REMAK: Could you swim in it?

WALDEN: I think you could sort of splash around in it, anyway, if you wanted to get muddy.

REMAK: What about Painted Cave itself? I understand that the Hydes had something to do with building a fence in front of it.

WALDEN: I don't know about this. He did have some connections up there, I know. 00:50:00I can remember going up and walking. He had a lot of property up there some place that--well, this lake I suppose was on it, and he now--I had forgotten what the story was, but probably he had something to do with selling off some of that property up there too.

REMAK: It seems like the sort of thing he'd do.

WALDEN: Yeah. Well, somebody must know the story of his early life which I am really not an authority on at all. But it sounds very charming, his living in a cave on the Riviera and buying all this property at the end of the Depression. I would like to know this story. (laughter)

REMAK: I think that's what we're going to get out of this.

WALDEN: I hope so. I think that would be really wonderful.

REMAK: Let me also go back to one other thing before I let you go here. I'd love to have some more details of daily life, like did you make your own bread, did 00:51:00you crush olives to get olive oil? (narrator laughs) How did you do your laundry? (laughter) What did you eat? Did you have a real stove?

WALDEN: Yes. In this house where Ed and I lived we had this, you know, as I say, it had an outdoor bathtub, and we had a hot water heater which actually Ed did not have until I moved in with him, and I persuaded him that a hot water heater was real nice--which turned out to be very true. And we had an outhouse. And the hot water heater only provided the bathtub, and eventually at some point along the way we got a washing machine--I guess maybe when Megan was small. And so I did the wash up there. Before I always did the wash at the laundromat. And Ed was really big into gardening. He really liked gardening. And we had a lot of trees, a lot of fruit trees there. And it was, I mean, you know, who knows. I'm sure that there were a number of anxieties and difficult times, but the time 00:52:00that's passed has worn the rough edges away. It was really, you know, it was very pleasant. I'd get up and go feed the goats and milk the goats and feed the chickens and come back in, and I'd have this whole ritual of boiling the bottles and all this kind of stuff. And we'd work in the garden or Ed potted. He had a little studio there that he would work in. And I made most of my bread. I once--I had to laugh when you said olive oil, because I once tried the great olive oil experiment, which meant a mere ten to fifteen hours work for a pint of olive oil (laughter)--a fiasco. But we crushed grapes and made the wine for a while. We really did give a try towards being self-sufficient. You know, there was some stuff that...

REMAK: The trouble with fruit trees is that you either have nothing or you have too much.

WALDEN: Yes.

WALDEN: What did you do with the leftovers? Did you do a lot of canning?

WALDEN: I did a lot of canning. And the folks had some too. I tried various different--I cured olives a number of years, you know, and actually made some quite good olives. All it takes (laughter) is weeks and weeks of backbreaking labor. The first years I did it, I did it with this lye process. They have this, Canning Your Own Olives, from the Extension place, you know. And you soak them in lye, which you change every twice a day for a number of days, maybe four or five days, and then you change the water in them twice a day for maybe 10 or 15 days, and you keep cutting them to see if the--I made them in these big 5-gallon crocks. It just occurs to me right now that maybe I should have made them in several smaller--well, that wouldn't have been easier (laughter) either to wash. I had these big crocks that I would dump them out and then--how much air that 00:54:00gets to them determines--well you pick them all when they're green, and then how much air gets to them determines whether they're green or black. I always wanted to make green olives, but by the time I finished they were always black. And then you have to leach all this lye out with water, and then you have to cut into each day to make--because otherwise they're sort of soapy, you know, if you don't get the lye out.

REMAK: You mean each olive had to be cut into?

WALDEN: Well, no, no. You would just test them each day. (laughter) No, no, even I was not that foolish. And then after, you know, some long time which I can't remember exactly--actually they often came out very good, and you could put them in brine, or I liked to put them in commercial olive oil with some garlic and stuff like that, basil--they came out quite delicious. And there were some other ways, too. You could do them in salt. That was very good but quite salty, and came out very well. And I tried to get into drying a few times, to try dry 00:55:00fruits and stuff like that. I went through several great drying schemes. (laughter) And I made my own yogurt.

REMAK: How were they?

WALDEN: Oh, never great, but sometimes semi-successful.

REMAK: You make your own yogurt?

WALDEN: Yeah. Merv Lane, who would be actually a great person for you to talk to.[11] Have you heard of him? Boy, he would be wonderful. He had this yogurt strain. And so he would give to people who would really promise to be diligent. And you had to make the yogurt about once a week or maybe once every two weeks was you know. So I kept this yogurt going for years. He'd given it to me, and I just loved it, and I made it at least once every two weeks for several years. And then something happened. I think I went on vacation, and when I got back--oh, no, my friend had come to visit, and she'd put the last of the yogurt into the fruit salad. And I said, "Oh, you have to 00:56:00save some of this." And so I spent weeks trying to get up my nerve to go ask Merv for more yogurt starter, and when I did--and I know that I had it going for a minimum of three, maybe five years, And I said, "Oh, Merv, I lost my yogurt starter. Can I have some more." And he said, "Well, what happened to it?" (laughter) But of course he still had some. I mean I have no idea how long he kept his going. (laughter) It's a great old strain.

REMAK: That's good. But you did do your own bread making?

WALDEN: Yeah. I made most of my own bread for a number of years.

REMAK: All different kinds?

WALDEN: Yeah. I made pretty much the same recipe over and over again, but I would vary it. If it called for flour, I'd substitute whole wheat flour, and I'd substitute a little wheat germ for part of the flour, then a little soy flour, then. (laughter) I became famous for this with my kids, you know, I'd substitute skim milk for cream and substitute carob for chocolate, you know, and there's 00:57:00our chocolate mousse. But I did, I actually got quite good at bread making. And we sometimes killed our own chickens and had chicken soup or chicken this. And a couple of times I killed my own baby goats.

REMAK: Was that hard?

WALDEN: Well, Yes. It was after that--I did it once with a friend and once by myself, and after that I sold them to the Mexican restaurants on Haley Street. You can't you know, you have to freshen your goats every year, and that makes a lot of babies. The meat was not that wonderful or delicious, and it was a lot of work, and it was sort of sad. Although it was quite interesting. One, I guess I can't remember which it was that I killed, maybe with my neighbor, and I took the baby out and the mother goats went, "baa, baa." And she keeps carrying on, and we take the baby over and go, "cck," and hang him up by his feet, and you know, she came over and looked over there and saw the goat hanging and that was 00:58:00it. She just went, "Well, he's dead." And she stopped fussing. I was really amazed. I still remember that after all these years. It made me feel a little bit better, you know, that she was able to take it okay and I should try to do so myself.

REMAK: That was wonderful. It sounds like really good times in many ways.

WALDEN: In many ways it was.

REMAK: Are there any other things that you think I should have asked you that I didn't ask you about?

WALDEN: No.

REMAK: It really was very nice of you, and I enjoyed it a lot.

WALDEN: My pleasure. And I do hope--I know that there are some people who can really give you some wonderful stories. I really think it's a great project.

REMAK: Why don't we, after we turn the tape off, talk to you about them, and see if we can get some names?

WALDEN: Yes. Very nice.

REMAK: That would be very nice. Thanks a lot.